• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Man shot, killed by off-duty Dallas police officer who walked into wrong apartment p3

Botham Jean’s family plans lawsuit against apartment complex where Amber Guyger shot him


https://www.dallasnews.com/news/cou...apartment-complex-where-amber-guyger-shot-him

This seems thin. Guyger was convicted of a criminal act. I think it's going to be hard to say that the apartment has any culpability for the overtly criminal acts of Guyger. Guyger's argument that the killing was a reasonable consequence of an honest screw-up about apartment doors was rejected as too outlandish.

I have tremendous empathy for the family of Jean. Guyger has no ability to pay out any lawsuit. Having lost the case against the PD, there's really no one left with the ability to pay out that they can sue.
 
I'm really hesitant to go down this road because I know very well that certain elements will run with it and take it to a very, very bad place but here's the thing. They got justice of Jean. The woman who murdered him was found guilty. And it's not like Jean dying was a financial loss to them.

Basically I'm not on-board with the "They haven't gotten justice until they get some money." subtext.
 
This seems thin. Guyger was convicted of a criminal act. I think it's going to be hard to say that the apartment has any culpability for the overtly criminal acts of Guyger. Guyger's argument that the killing was a reasonable consequence of an honest screw-up about apartment doors was rejected as too outlandish.

I have tremendous empathy for the family of Jean. Guyger has no ability to pay out any lawsuit. Having lost the case against the PD, there's really no one left with the ability to pay out that they can sue.

The clam that the self-closing door malfunctioned may have merit. It was argued in part 1 of the thread that she couldn't have shot him if the door was closed (I argued that these things only work as well as maintenance personnel adjust them). It is a basic safety/security feature of living in a multi-family dwelling that these doors work as designed, specifically to stave off unauthorized entry. And murder and whatnot. Although I guess the argument could be raised that if Jean had not reported the door needing service, the building would not know there was a problem.
 
Well then why not sue her car manufacturer? If her car had broken down on the way home from work she never would have shot Jean. It's obviously their fault for making reliable cars that get people to scenes of murder. Or hell her parents. Sue them. If they hadn't given birth to her none of this would have happened.

Here's my universal litmus test on this kind of thing. Would it have been legal to do the thing if the variable had been different?

Is it legal to shoot someone just because they left their door unlocked? No? Then the door lock didn't make Guyger shoot Jean. Case closed.

Guyger shot Jean. Guyger has been punished.
 
Here's my universal litmus test on this kind of thing. Would it have been legal to do the thing if the variable had been different?


That litmus test sounds appropriate for judging whether what Guyger did was illegal but doesn't seem to have much bearing on whether the Apartment complex is installing defective doors (which are mean to stop people from walking in to your apartment).
 
Well then why not sue her car manufacturer? If her car had broken down on the way home from work she never would have shot Jean. It's obviously their fault for making reliable cars that get people to scenes of murder. Or hell her parents. Sue them. If they hadn't given birth to her none of this would have happened.

Here's my universal litmus test on this kind of thing. Would it have been legal to do the thing if the variable had been different?

Is it legal to shoot someone just because they left their door unlocked? No? Then the door lock didn't make Guyger shoot Jean. Case closed.

Guyger shot Jean. Guyger has been punished.

Because direct negligence has a long history of being found contributory.

To continue your car analogy, if an airbag was found defective and a driver went through the windshield, do you seriously think the manufacturer would not be breaking out their checkbook? Your stuff has to reasonably work as intended, especially in safety/security matters. The Saudi Butterfly argument is straw.

eta: she was not punished appropriately, IMO. Murderers shouldn't breathe free air for a generation, at least.

re: litmus. 'Would it have been legal to do the thing if the variable had been different' was her entire ******* defense. You arguing for her acquittal, now?
 
Last edited:
Well then why not sue her car manufacturer? If her car had broken down on the way home from work she never would have shot Jean. It's obviously their fault for making reliable cars that get people to scenes of murder. Or hell her parents. Sue them. If they hadn't given birth to her none of this would have happened.

This is arguing the opposite of what Jean's family is arguing. This is saying things worked as they should, and if they hadn't, Jean would still be alive. Jean's family is saying if things worked as they should then Jean would have still been alive.
 
Well then why not sue her car manufacturer? If her car had broken down on the way home from work she never would have shot Jean. It's obviously their fault for making reliable cars that get people to scenes of murder. Or hell her parents. Sue them. If they hadn't given birth to her none of this would have happened.

Here's my universal litmus test on this kind of thing. Would it have been legal to do the thing if the variable had been different?

Is it legal to shoot someone just because they left their door unlocked? No? Then the door lock didn't make Guyger shoot Jean. Case closed.

Guyger shot Jean. Guyger has been punished.

Like the car manufacturer is not liable for the failure of the seat-belts in the car accident because you where hit by a drunk driver,, who takes all liability for their mistakes away from them. I mean seriously how can a car manufacturer then ever be liable for failure of safety devices, it unless that failure causes the accident. Merely making the damage worse is not any kind of legal liability.
 
I'm really hesitant to go down this road because I know very well that certain elements will run with it and take it to a very, very bad place but here's the thing. They got justice of Jean. The woman who murdered him was found guilty. And it's not like Jean dying was a financial loss to them.

Basically I'm not on-board with the "They haven't gotten justice until they get some money." subtext.
Yeah, I could understand that if she had been found innocent the family would still want to go after her but as you say they have seen justice done. As far as I know Jean didn't support his family financially so I can't but judge their civil case to be avarice.
 
I'm really hesitant to go down this road because I know very well that certain elements will run with it and take it to a very, very bad place but here's the thing. They got justice of Jean. The woman who murdered him was found guilty. And it's not like Jean dying was a financial loss to them.

Basically I'm not on-board with the "They haven't gotten justice until they get some money." subtext.


Suing for money is the only way anyone can seek justice for misconduct that is not criminal. Landlords can be and have been held responsible for all kinds of negligence that results in or contributes to damage or injury. Inadequate exterior lighting, broken or missing entrance locks, slippery floors, deficient key control, failure to screen maintenance personnel, defective smoke and CO detectors, etc., etc. In this case the landlord might be responsible for a defective lock on the apartment door, inadequate signage in the garage, and more. I noted in pictures that the apartment didn't have a chain or flip bar, which most apartment dwellers expect as a backstop to their other locks. Electronic keys could be programmed to allow access from the garage or elevator only to the floor where a resident lives. Garage spaces could be numbered and assigned so a resident would be less likely to drive to the wrong floor. Etc.

The whole point of suing is not just to recover money, but to warn all others in similar circumstances that they will be held liable for their negligence. Without the ability to sue, anybody could do anything and get away with it unless it becomes a crime. I'm pretty sure Botham Jean's family would trade any amount of money to get their loved one back.
 
This is arguing the opposite of what Jean's family is arguing. This is saying things worked as they should, and if they hadn't, Jean would still be alive. Jean's family is saying if things worked as they should then Jean would have still been alive.

The problem I have with this is the approach of looking for people ever more remotely associated with the events until you find someone with money / insurance. So the directly liable person was the killer. No money here so move on. Then you have the employer, who required the killer to be armed, may have required the killer to work excessive hours and did hold liability for vicarious acts of their employee. Now they got off because they successfully claimed that the act was not carried out in the course of employment. So move on, next it is the landlord, perhaps next the manufacturer of the door?

The other problem is that it is argued that action must be taken to protect against ever more remote risks. So we are now going to argue that all residents in communal accommodation will have to have security retrofitted to prevent a resident of the building entering the wrong apartment and opening fire on the resident. A civil lawsuit based on a rare event seems a very bad way of establishing security standards. Increased security means increased rents and maintenance costs making accommodation less available to the poor. It may make access in the event of emergency more difficult and may make deaths more likely. Electronic systems may be vulnerable to hacking. Auto-closing doors have the result you can lock yourself out then leaving you with no easy way to get back in when you are at risk e.g. from mugging and may result in an increased risk of death.

So what is the outcome, self locking doors - future court case that these are negligent; no self locking door current court case that these are negligent. Cars do not all have air bags because of tort law but because they are legally mandated. (Otherwise the cases where manufacturers were sued for harm from airbags would have resulted in them being removed!)

The US practice of punitive damages is what results in US legal costs being so high. It may be an excuse for not having appropriate regulatory frameworks because safety is left to tort law. The appropriate place for someone to be punished is not a civil court but a criminal court with appropriate legislation e.g. health and safety. The civil courts can level 'fines' far greater than the criminal law would allow on far flimsier evidence. These fines from civil cases can then be converted into prison time if the person cannot pay the 'fine'.
 
As a side note, I hate these kind of locks, and they seem to be popular in new apartment builds.

Deadbolts are the best technology. No worrying about if the door closed all the way or if the lock properly engaged. No possibility of accidentally locking yourself outside your own apartment. You know the door is locked because you can turn the deadbolt with your hand and can feel it engage.
 
Last edited:
The problem I have with this is the approach of looking for people ever more remotely associated with the events until you find someone with money / insurance. So the directly liable person was the killer. No money here so move on. Then you have the employer, who required the killer to be armed, may have required the killer to work excessive hours and did hold liability for vicarious acts of their employee. Now they got off because they successfully claimed that the act was not carried out in the course of employment. So move on, next it is the landlord, perhaps next the manufacturer of the door?

The other problem is that it is argued that action must be taken to protect against ever more remote risks. So we are now going to argue that all residents in communal accommodation will have to have security retrofitted to prevent a resident of the building entering the wrong apartment and opening fire on the resident. A civil lawsuit based on a rare event seems a very bad way of establishing security standards. Increased security means increased rents and maintenance costs making accommodation less available to the poor. It may make access in the event of emergency more difficult and may make deaths more likely. Electronic systems may be vulnerable to hacking. Auto-closing doors have the result you can lock yourself out then leaving you with no easy way to get back in when you are at risk e.g. from mugging and may result in an increased risk of death.

So what is the outcome, self locking doors - future court case that these are negligent; no self locking door current court case that these are negligent. Cars do not all have air bags because of tort law but because they are legally mandated. (Otherwise the cases where manufacturers were sued for harm from airbags would have resulted in them being removed!)

The US practice of punitive damages is what results in US legal costs being so high. It may be an excuse for not having appropriate regulatory frameworks because safety is left to tort law. The appropriate place for someone to be punished is not a civil court but a criminal court with appropriate legislation e.g. health and safety. The civil courts can level 'fines' far greater than the criminal law would allow on far flimsier evidence. These fines from civil cases can then be converted into prison time if the person cannot pay the 'fine'.

For what it's worth. I agree with Thermal in that unless there is evidence of a series of complaints that the door wasn't locking then this will be tossed in a heartbeat.

I understand what you're saying, and for the most part I don't disagree. We're extremely sue happy in the United States and for some businesses that's the only thing that matters so it's the only consequence they care about.
 
As a side note, I hate these kind of locks, and they seem to be popular in new apartment builds.

Deadbolts are the best technology. No worrying about if the door closed all the way or if the lock properly engaged. No possibility of accidentally locking yourself outside your own apartment. You know the door is locked because you can turn the deadbolt with your hand and can feel it engage.
The apartments at South Side Flats do have deadbolts. Jean wasn't using his deadbolt.
 
The apartments at South Side Flats do have deadbolts. Jean wasn't using his deadbolt.

Well, that's strange. So what's the lawsuit?

Guyger opened the unlocked door, freaked out, and shot him. I don't really see how the apt has any culpability here.

Does the door lock automatically if it shuts or something? I dont see how slightly ajar is meaningfully different than just unlocked in these circumstances.
 
Well, that's strange. So what's the lawsuit?

Guyger opened the unlocked door, freaked out, and shot him. I don't really see how the apt has any culpability here.

Does the door lock automatically if it shuts or something? I dont see how slightly ajar is meaningfully different than just unlocked in these circumstances.

Yes, the self closing hinges close the door and automatically lock the knob. The deadbolt is for double kick-in prevention.
 
Well, that's strange. So what's the lawsuit?

Guyger opened the unlocked door, freaked out, and shot him. I don't really see how the apt has any culpability here.

Does the door lock automatically if it shuts or something? I dont see how slightly ajar is meaningfully different than just unlocked in these circumstances.

Yes it is supposed to close and lock automatically but because it was installed improperly failed to do so. If it was installed properly she wouldn't have been able to get in with out kicking down the door.

It is simple, if the apartment had made sure the door was properly installed he would still be alive today.
 
Yes it is supposed to close and lock automatically but because it was installed improperly failed to do so. If it was installed properly she wouldn't have been able to get in with out kicking down the door.

It is simple, if the apartment had made sure the door was properly installed he would still be alive today.

It may have been installed properly, but needed common routine adjustment. That would rely on the tenant to report the need for servicing.
 
Yes it is supposed to close and lock automatically but because it was installed improperly failed to do so. If it was installed properly she wouldn't have been able to get in with out kicking down the door.

It is simple, if the apartment had made sure the door was properly installed he would still be alive today.

The question will become whether or not that failure to have a working door is considered enough to share culpability.

My personal judgement is no. Guyger's criminal acts were so wantonly reckless and unreasonable that I find it hard to place blame anywhere else.

Shooting someone because you accidentally trespass into their apartment is not a reasonable response. Perhaps the apartment's poor installation allowed for the accidental trespass to occur, but I can't really see it just holding them accountable for the egregious decisions Guyger made from that point on.
 
The question will become whether or not that failure to have a working door is considered enough to share culpability.

My personal judgement is no. Guyger's criminal acts were so wantonly reckless and unreasonable that I find it hard to place blame anywhere else.

Shooting someone because you accidentally trespass into their apartment is not a reasonable response. Perhaps the apartment's poor installation allowed for the accidental trespass to occur, but I can't really see it just holding them accountable for the egregious decisions Guyger made from that point on.

Really makes it easy for automotive companies to get off from unsafe cars. "Sure if the belt was designed properly they would never have been ejected from the car, but really it was the fault of getting in the accident that bears all the culpability so why are we complaining about this mere safety hazard?"

But I guess there is no legal responsibility on the part of an apartment that the safety equipment they have actually works. Any deaths that result will always be easily blamed on something else.
 

Back
Top Bottom