India's New Citizenship Law

[McHrozni]

The NRC does this...and it is part of the exercise by the government.

The NRC is just a register of citizens and that doesn't strip anyone from citizenship either. The exercise is meant to purge non-citizens from Indian registry of citizens, which really isn't controversial by itself.

The problem is that a significant number of people - some two million - live in India, were born in India, have no other country but India, but wouldn't be eligeble for Indian citizenship under these laws. These people already are stateless, India would simply not recognize their right to citizenship. India is of course technically allowed to do so, but it is unconscionable to reject citizenship to people who lived their entire lives in your country and have no other place to call home.

Note, I don't actually support the reform - it's unconscionable - but not for the reasons presented.

McHrozni

 

[dudalb]

That's not what the law does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_(Amendment)_Act,_2019

The law permits non-Muslim immigrants from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan who moved to India before 2014 to obtain citizenship. It does not permit Muslim immigrants from those countries to do so, nor does it strip anyone from citizenship. Anyone left stateless in the wake of the bill is stateless already.

The purpoted nature of the bill is to allow people who fled religious persecution settle in India. The assumption is there is no religious persecution against Muslims in Muslim countries. This is where the bill utterly fails, the religious persecution against fellow Muslims is often even worse than against non-Muslims in those countries. That's the reason the bill is wrong.

McHrozni

Not unusual in religions. Christians kept their worst hatred for other Christians, particularly in the Reformation era. The Inqusition did persecute Jews,but spent a lot more time and effort going after Protestents...which the Protesetents paid back with interest, of course.

 

[dudalb]

The NRC is just a register of citizens and that doesn't strip anyone from citizenship either. The exercise is meant to purge non-citizens from Indian registry of citizens, which really isn't controversial by itself.

The problem is that a significant number of people - some two million - live in India, were born in India, have no other country but India, but wouldn't be eligeble for Indian citizenship under these laws. These people already are stateless, India would simply not recognize their right to citizenship. India is of course technically allowed to do so, but it is unconscionable to reject citizenship to people who lived their entire lives in your country and have no other place to call home.

Note, I don't actually support the reform - it's unconscionable - but not for the reasons presented.

McHrozni

I think the main problem is that it shows the direction in which the current Indian government intends to go..and it's not a pretty place.
I find that they are comtemplating trying to restore the full blown Caste system mind boggling.

 

[Susheel]

True, however, the exercise of “updating the NRC” already underway in Assam showed huge gaps in data particularly among the tribals and Muslims. Many were sent to detention camps pending “investigation”. A disproportionate number of those who found their names missing were Muslims. The CAA states that while non-Hindus not on the list will be provided citizenship papers, the Muslims will not. While high profile cases have been brought to light, a large number of ordinary citizens will b affected.

 

[McHrozni]

Not unusual in religions. Christians kept their worst hatred for other Christians, particularly in the Reformation era. The Inqusition did persecute Jews,but spent a lot more time and effort going after Protestents...which the Protesetents paid back with interest, of course.

The Spanish Inquisition persecuted false converts, first and foremost - people who converted from Islam or Judaism into Christianity after the Alehambra decree, but were suspected of harboring old beliefs still.

Of course there was also persecution of Protestants who paid back with interest. It is indeed not unusual for religious persecution to target heretics (who follow your religion incorrectly) over heathens (who don't follow your religion).

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

I think the main problem is that it shows the direction in which the current Indian government intends to go..and it's not a pretty place.
I find that they are comtemplating trying to restore the full blown Caste system mind boggling.

Yes, definitely. We'll soon see how deep does the principle of "national soverignty" goes with ideologues who proclaim to hold it sacred.

http://tech.mit.edu/V120/N6/chomsky.6n.html
https://newsmeter.in/romila-thapar-noam-chomsky-other-renowned-academics-condemn-citizenship-act/

About as far as convenient, as it turns out. Not that I'm surprised or anything.

McHrozni

 

[Darat]

It is surprising how fast that Hinduism's reputation as being a tolerant religion is going down the drain.

Seriously when did it have such a reputation ?

 

[Trebuchet]

Seriously when did it have such a reputation ?

I think it's mostly among new-age type Americans.

 

[rockysmith76]

Interesting that you feel that Muslims and Terrorrism are interconnected. Past few decades have shown more terrorrist activity by the Hindu groups like the RSS (and their accolytes the BJP), Shiv Sena, Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the cults of various gurus and godmen currently being extolled by the current government. One of them has actually escaped a possible rape charge in India to establish a quasi Hindu Nation on an island off the coast of Ecuador:
https://www.news18.com/news/india/on-the-run-from-law-nithyananda-establishes-his-own-nation-called-kailaasa-near-ecuador-2410593.html

more like that will be the outcome if the situation gets bad enough, if not by actual citizens, its an opportunity for agitation from outside potentially.

 

[rockysmith76]

So the state sanctioned terrorism is not concerning. "We have to watch out for them Muslims."

Thats what the Government there seems to want you to believe.

 

[rockysmith76]

Baiting? I am supposed to overlook the fact that he thinks the main problem with the situation here is not that the state is indulging in violent and even deadly repression of dissent, but that hypothetically the CAA might result in Islamic terrorism? The protest in India is not just from the Muslims...it plans all religions.

Yet they're starting with Muslims, they must be seen as an easy scapegoat.

 

[rockysmith76]

Not unusual in religions. Christians kept their worst hatred for other Christians, particularly in the Reformation era. The Inqusition did persecute Jews,but spent a lot more time and effort going after Protestents...which the Protesetents paid back with interest, of course.

The same can be said between Sunni and Shia islam.

 

[dudalb]

And the harassement of Muslims is going to spread to those in Kashmir;and that is going to provoke a response from Pakistan. And that is the scariest thing about this mess;both India and Pakistant have nukes and they already don't like each other very much......

 

[dudalb]

The same can be said between Sunni and Shia islam.

religions do seem to keep there worst hatred for heretics rather then infidels.

 

[McHrozni]

religions do seem to keep there worst hatred for heretics rather then infidels.

This is not really limited to religions either. The worst hatred is usually aimed at people close to you, civil wars tend to be more brutal than wars of one nation against another. There's something close and personal in fighting someone who is supposed to be like you but represents everything you're not.

McHrozni

 

[Susheel]

And the harassement of Muslims is going to spread to those in Kashmir;and that is going to provoke a response from Pakistan. And that is the scariest thing about this mess;both India and Pakistant have nukes and they already don't like each other very much......

Kashmir is already the petri dish for the current givernment's anti-Muslim policies

 

[dudalb]

Kashmir is already the petri dish for the current givernment's anti-Muslim policies

Like I said, very scary. No wonder an India Pakistan exchange is by far the most likely scenario for nukes being used.

 

[Susheel]

Chief invitee to the Republic Day celebrations in India, Bolsonaro says "Indians are undoubtedly changing…They are increasingly becoming human beings just like us.” In the midst of collective outrage, the right wing collective in India who sees Bolsonaro as an ally in their oppressive policis have defended the remark as referring to the indigenous people of Brazil (which, in their mind makes it alright) and not to the actual Indians.

 

[Susheel]

Even as Modi and Trump indulge in manufactured shows of strength, the BJP has decided to punish the Shaheen Bhag protestors and more importantly the people of Delhi for voting against them. Instigated by the BJP, right wing goons have begun to wreak havoc and indulge in violence in Delhi while the police look on and in some cases even aid and abet the violence. Since yesterday, at least 5 deaths in various parts of Delhi including one police constable.

 

[dudalb]

Even as Modi and Trump indulge in manufactured shows of strength, the BJP has decided to punish the Shaheen Bhag protestors and more importantly the people of Delhi for voting against them. Instigated by the BJP, right wing goons have begun to wreak havoc and indulge in violence in Delhi while the police look on and in some cases even aid and abet the violence. Since yesterday, at least 5 deaths in various parts of Delhi including one police constable.

And Trump was probably taking notes...
Maybe he and Modi can engage in a contest of who can persuecute Muslims the most....