Who created al Qaeda?

[Oystein]

Dear Oystein, go back and read what Osama bin Laden said.

You seem to be freaking out because surprisingly you of all people haven’t actually checked and thought through the original sources of 9/11.

Your attempt at reversing your burden of proof doesn't work with me.

 

[rockysmith76]

He's not smart enough to be anyone but his dumb self.

Which is a Real Estate Con man, in spite of the apparently unavoidable leftie vitriol you injected.

 

[carlitos]

Hillary's husband would be the one who wanted everything short of a lawyer and Miranda warning-reading cop sent over to Afghanistan to deal with OBL instead of liquidating him. The CIA kept finding him, and Clinton kept not signing off on the MOCs. Not even after the Cole bombing. Clinton wasted tens of millions and killed innocents with a missile strike because he was ... i don't know, squeamish about having a human kill him instead.

I would take Hillary's theories about this issue with a boulder-sized grain of salt.

 

[rockysmith76]

Hillary's husband would be the one who wanted everything short of a lawyer and Miranda warning-reading cop sent over to Afghanistan to deal with OBL instead of liquidating him. The CIA kept finding him, and Clinton kept not signing off on the MOCs. Not even after the Cole bombing. Clinton wasted tens of millions and killed innocents with a missile strike because he was ... i don't know, squeamish about having a human kill him instead.

I would take Hillary's theories about this issue with a boulder-sized grain of salt.

Bill had OBL in his sights so to speak, and did not take the shot. He will laways have to live with that failure.

 

[Allen773]

I am insulted by the way I am being misrepresented and underestimated.

This topic was not just blaming the CIA.

Geggy in the OP showed Hillary Clinton “blaming” the USA in a soundbite and explaining the far wider issues.

I am not blaming the CIA or the USA.

I’m discussing the far wider issues.

Why do you all want to shut that discussion down?

 

[Axxman300]

I am insulted by the way I am being misrepresented and underestimated.

This topic was not just blaming the CIA.

Geggy in the OP showed Hillary Clinton “blaming” the USA in a soundbite and explaining the far wider issues.

I am not blaming the CIA or the USA.

I’m discussing the far wider issues.

Why do you all want to shut that discussion down?

We're not shutting anything down. Nobody has posted anything anti-Islamic since you hijacked the thread, nobody is disputing that there are a lot of people living in Middle Eastern countries who are violently oppressed by their governments who are on friendly terms with the US, who turns a blind eye to their misdeeds due to oil or strategic interests. Hell, nobody is even debating the merits of terrorism either way in the context of regional conflicts.

You're claiming that bin Laden was somehow justified in the 9-11 attacks due to issues which were either inaccurate or distorted. You post his letter where he lists his grievances with the US and thus set the course of the debate.

 

[JSanderO]

What's more interesting... to me... is now who founded the group, names it and so on... but how its membership grew? Word of mouth? txting and email? What were their stated goals and membership requirements. Who and how made the management decisions?

 

[ozeco41]

What's more interesting... to me... is now who founded the group, names it and so on... but how its membership grew? Word of mouth? txting and email? What were their stated goals and membership requirements. Who and how made the management decisions?

Read the book "The Looming Tower".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Looming_Tower

 

[trustbutverify]

I've been thinking about geggy a bit lately.

I searched the 9/11 CT forum and this was their last post here.

While their posts often seemed to me to be a tangled labyrinth of names, events, and places, I'd like to hear their comment on the current state of affairs in the world.

He thinks the Jews did 9/11, and tried to frame Arabs for it. I can extrapolate his views going forward.

 

[Orphia Nay]

We're not shutting anything down. Nobody has posted anything anti-Islamic since you hijacked the thread, nobody is disputing that there are a lot of people living in Middle Eastern countries who are violently oppressed by their governments who are on friendly terms with the US, who turns a blind eye to their misdeeds due to oil or strategic interests. Hell, nobody is even debating the merits of terrorism either way in the context of regional conflicts.

You're claiming that bin Laden was somehow justified in the 9-11 attacks due to issues which were either inaccurate or distorted. You post his letter where he lists his grievances with the US and thus set the course of the debate.

This is about as close to discussing the topic as I see we're going to get, so let's work with this post.

Meanwhile others are wanting to discuss what Al Qaeda didn't do; why the US military sought revenge; alleging things geggy does or doesn't believe;and personally attacking me for some strange reason.

I'm not claiming "Bin Laden was somehow justified in the 9/11 attacks".

I've showed statements from Bin Laden and The Secretary of State that show that the reasons Bin Laden gave for 9/11 agree with what The Secretary of State said made it happen.

ETA: It's very obvious when you put it like that, but everyone is having a really hard time agreeing with it and saying geggy and I am right about it.

And you're saying I hijacked the thread when I was discussing what geggy posted, when the thread was about anything except that till I "hijacked it".

 

[Orphia Nay]

Let's try and move forward a bit more.

The Secretary of State's comments were along the lines of saying that international politics, Central Asian geography, and the Cold War were a large part of what made Al Qaeda set up in Afghanistan and attack the USA, we agree.

But how do we move forward without going "off topic" and discussing current international politics, global immigration, and the USA's relationship with Russia and the Arab world?

If we can't do that, then we can agree the thread is now finally dead and geggy has belatedly been given credit for saying something that wasn't a 9/11 CT.

 

[bknight]

I posted this in #122 and #158.

Cheers, ozeco41.

I understand the pride we debunkers take in "knowing more" than the average person.

<snip>

So just exactly are you attempting to debunk? Why won't you provide an answer?

 

[JSanderO]

Debunking is a waste of time. If your were surprised by 911 and wanted to understand how the buildings came down... you can do research and find some excellent work about it. Those with so called conspiracy theories are not interested in understanding the collapse nor is anyone obligated to help them or debunk their nonsense. Ignore stupidity and focus on understanding.

 

[pgimeno]

But how do we move forward without going "off topic" and discussing current international politics, global immigration, and the USA's relationship with Russia and the Arab world?

Since its creation I thought this thread was off topic for this particular subforum (remember it's called 9/11 Conspiracy Theories).

If we can't do that, then we can agree the thread is now finally dead and geggy has belatedly been given credit for saying something that wasn't a 9/11 CT.

I'll give you that. So please give me credit for conceding a point, and more credit for posting in an off-topic thread. Yay me.

I can give credit to geggy for saying something that wasn't a 9/11 CT, but that credit is offset by him posting it in a forum where it's off topic.

 

[Axxman300]

This is about as close to discussing the topic as I see we're going to get, so let's work with this post.

Meanwhile others are wanting to discuss what Al Qaeda didn't do; why the US military sought revenge; alleging things geggy does or doesn't believe;and personally attacking me for some strange reason.

I'm not claiming "Bin Laden was somehow justified in the 9/11 attacks".

I've showed statements from Bin Laden and The Secretary of State that show that the reasons Bin Laden gave for 9/11 agree with what The Secretary of State said made it happen.

ETA: It's very obvious when you put it like that, but everyone is having a really hard time agreeing with it and saying geggy and I am right about it.

And you're saying I hijacked the thread when I was discussing what geggy posted, when the thread was about anything except that till I "hijacked it".

This is the original post from geggy:

Operation Cyclone

Operation Cyclone was the code name for the United States Central Intelligence Agency program to arm and finance the mujahideen, in Afghanistan from 1979 to 1989, prior to and during the military intervention by the USSR in support of its client, the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan. The program leaned heavily towards supporting militant Islamic groups that were favored by the regime of Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq in neighboring Pakistan, rather than other, less ideological Afghan resistance groups that had also been fighting the Marxist-oriented Democratic Republic of Afghanistan regime since before the Soviet intervention. Operation Cyclone was one of the longest and most expensive covert CIA operations ever undertaken; funding began with just over $500,000 in 1979, was increased dramatically to $20–$30 million per year in 1980 and rose to $630 million per year in 1987.

This implies that Al Qaeda was created and or aided by the CIA and it was not. In his book, Ghost Wars Steve Coll chronicles the Afghan War and states that while the CIA did reach out to bin Laden (as they did with just about any tribe or Muj group fighting the Soviets) but bin Laden told them to get lost. Bin Laden was a CTist and thus felt the CIA was the center of all evil.

The argument can be made that we help create what would become the Taliban since after the Soviets left, Pakistan was stuck with a large number of foreign fighters in their northern provinces, some of whom the CIA trained and armed, and knew they would become a problem. Thus the ISI advanced the group which would become the Taliban to get those foreign fighters out of their country and over the border.

The Taliban are as much a criminal organization as they are a religious/political organization while Al Qaeda through 2004 was puritanical about Islam and neither organization got along. Al Qaeda was only able to move into Afghanistan by bribing the Taliban and kept to themselves out in Tarnac and Kandahar. After 9-11 the Taliban refused to give up Al Qaeda to the US because they wouldn't betray fellow Muslims to the Infidels.

Khalid al-Mihdhar was born in 1975 and had fought with the Taliban against the Northern Alliance. He was not Mujaheddin.

Nawaf al-Hazmi was born in 1976 and had fought in Bosnia before going to fight for the Taliban against the Northern Alliance. He was not Mujaheddin.

Mohamed Atta was born in 1968. 9-11 was his only jihadi experience. He was never Mujaheddin.

Ziad Jarrah was born in 1975. 9-11 was has only jihadi experience. He was never Mujaheddin.

Abdulaziz al-Omari was born in 1979. 9-11 was his only jihadi experience. He was never Mujaheddin.

Wail al-Shehri was never Mujaheddin. 9-11 was his only act of jihad

Satam al-Suqami didn't get to Afghanistan until 2000, he was never Mujaheddin. 9-11 was his only act of Jihad.

Hamza al-Ghamdi fought in Chechnya before joining Al Qaeda on 2000. He was never Mujaheddin.

Ahmed al-Ghamdi fought in Chechnya before joining Al Qaeda. He was never Mujaheddin.

Saeed al-Ghamdi fought in Chechnya. He was never Mujaheddin.

The rest of the hijackers were not Mujaheddin.

SecState Clinton's remarks were inaccurate and an overstatement, the US did not create Al Qaeda.

Afghanistan is an ancient and complex place. Human Right Watch has an excellent piece on the history through 1993:

https://www.hrw.org/report/2005/07/...cities-kabul-and-afghanistans-legacy-impunity

This report, which documents only one short part of that two-decade past, is not an attempt to remedy the situation.This report is not a comprehensive history of armed conflict in Afghanistan over the last two decades or a full accounting of the crimes of this period.Nor could it be.Complete documentation of the most serious atrocities committed in Afghanistan in the 1980s and 1990s, when it is accomplished, will require broad-based and long-term efforts backed fully by both the Afghan government and the international community.When such a history is written, it will not fit within the covers of a book; it will fill bookshelves.

Rather, this report focuses on a single year in Afghanistan's history: the Afghan year of 1371 (April 1992 to March 1993), immediately succeeding the collapse of the Soviet-backed government in Kabul. It also focuses on events in a single place: Afghanistan's capital, Kabul, and its immediate environs.

Why Kabul, and why 1371?To start, there is the scale of the abuses and their context.The year 1371 was Afghanistan's first full year of freedom from Soviet manipulation, in the wake of ten years of Soviet occupation in the 1980s.The change of power in Kabul in 1371 could easily have marked a new beginning for Afghanistan.

What most people forget or ignore is that the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan was brutal and the actions of the US in aiding the Mujaheddin was as much a humanitarian effort as it was a great way to stick it to Russia.

The fact is that even without the Soviet invasion and occupation of Afghanistan Al Qaeda would have existed in some form anyway. Case in point: The assassination of Anwar Sadat. He was murdered by The Egyptian Ilsamic Jihad for brokering a peace with Israel. Egyptians being Egyptians they rounded up 1,500 people including our friend, Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri (the head of Al Qaeda and the soul surviving 9-11 plotter not in custody). The good doctor was a member of the Al-Jihad and was tortured by the Egyptians while in custody.

Ayman al-Zawahiri was a Jihadist/Terrorist before Al Qaeda existed.

 

[Oystein]

...Al Qaeda would have existed in some form anyway. Case in point: The assassination of Anwar Sadat. He was murdered by The Egyptian Ilsamic Jihad for brokering a peace with Israel. Egyptians being Egyptians they rounded up 1,500 people including our friend, Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri...

Aha!

And didn't Anwar Sadat agree to piece with Israel to the tune of billions of military aid from the USA?
So the USA DID create Al Qaeda after all, by buying Egypt!
Gotcha!

 

[Axxman300]

Aha!

And didn't Anwar Sadat agree to piece with Israel to the tune of billions of military aid from the USA?
So the USA DID create Al Qaeda after all, by buying Egypt!
Gotcha!

Yes, you're onto our evil plan to bring peace to the middle east by getting the locals to buy our weapons instead of Russian or French-made weapons.

Thanks to the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria the AR-15 had begun to replace the AK-47, and with all of the Toyata 4x4 pickup trucks we're leaving there the entire region will eventually resemble Texas. Next step: Chicken Fried Steak and Barbecue.

 

[Axxman300]

On a serious note the USMA just released this essay from its Modern Warfare Institute and it is a kick in the balls that I agree with 1000%:

https://mwi.usma.edu/strategic-folly-consequences-americas-unending-war-afghanistan/

First, the conflict in Afghanistan is not an insurgency. It is a proxy war being waged by Pakistan against Afghanistan and the United States. It is similar to Pakistan’s use of terrorist proxies against India in Kashmir.

Pakistan has always viewed Afghanistan as a client state and a security buffer against what it considers potential Indian encirclement and as a springboard to extend its own influence into the resource-rich areas of Central Asia.

The American counterinsurgency strategy was never winnable as long as Pakistan largely controlled the supply of our troops in landlocked Afghanistan and regulated the operational tempo through its proxy army, the Taliban, which has maintained an extensive recruiting, training, and financial support infrastructure inside Pakistan, all of which has been immune to attack.

Second, Pakistan has never been an ally of the United States, but a duplicitous partner, pursuing its own interests in coordination with its true ally, China, while being generously funded by us.

 

[Axxman300]

Okay kids, THIS is how you float a conspiracy theory:

https://observer.com/2016/04/uncovering-the-hidden-truths-of-911/

Moreover, focusing solely on Saudi tactical support to the Planes Operation obscures the bigger question of possible strategic support to 9/11. In other words, did any governments secretly aid al-Qa’ida in even more substantial ways than Riyadh did? Regrettably this question was always considered even more off-limits inside the Beltway than talking about Saudi involvement in 9/11—and it still remains explosive today.

That Iran had some sort of hand in the Planes Operation has long been suspected by many insiders. Contrary to what “terrorism experts” may say, Tehran was always willing to aid Sunni extremists like al-Qa’ida, while Osama bin Laden and his ilk were equally willing to accept secret help from the Shia they despise. Iranian intelligence has enjoyed a clandestine relationship with al-Qa’ida going back to the early 1990s, and U.S. intelligence has known of meetings between their leadership and top Tehran spies since 1996.

As I exposed in my 2007 book Unholy Terror, it was this toxic secret brew of Saudi cash and Iranian know-how that enabled al-Qa’ida in the 1990s to transform from a regional terrorist group into a global movement and threat. The real road to 9/11 was paved by Riyadh’s moneymen and Tehran’s spies, who despite their mutual antipathy were both eager to help bin Laden and his movement in their jihad against the West.

It has everything you need: secret documents only the author has seen, and an old enemy behind the curtains.

 

[Oystein]

Okay kids, THIS is how you float a conspiracy theory:

https://observer.com/2016/04/uncovering-the-hidden-truths-of-911/



It has everything you need: secret documents only the author has seen, and an old enemy behind the curtains.

Cool! But they lost me already at the first sentence, which is:

For nearly 15 years, ever since jihadists took down the Twin Towers and killed nearly 3,000 Americans, many have wondered how a bunch of novice terrorists—several of whom could barely fly an airplane, much less a big jetliner—could pull off such complex and audacious attack.