Cont: Brexit: Now What? 9 Below Zero

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Losses in employment, business activity and tax income occurred in 2008/09. This means that tax revenue hit it’s low point in 2010. If tax revenue was still dropping in 2010, by definition it could not have been the low point.

Budget deficits around the world were near their worst in 2010 for exactly this reason. Nonetheless it was a terrible point in time to try and pursue austerity as the recover was still slow and fragile. Austerity is something you do at the top of the cycle, not the bottom and certainly not in the midst of a fragile recovery.


My post about timing was in irect and specific response to this:

"The year 2010 was when the largest economic debacle in 70 years took place"


Of course I'm aware that government receipts lag the movement in general economic indicators. But I wasn't talking about the government accounts.

And I hear what you and others (and many economists) say about a Keynesian approach to public spending. I (and many economists) think differently: I think that recessionary indicators call for a tightening of the government's belt (though not nearly to the extent practised by the 2010 ConLib administration), targeted public infrastructure spending (but not a bonanza), the running of a moderate budget defecit*, and the use of monetarist instruments (by central banks, and not governments) to regear and stimulate the economy.


* Though remember that once the Labour administration ran up far too high a level of defecit during the boom years of the mid-2000s, the UK's national credit rating was precipitous by 2011 - there was a very real risk that it would have been downgraded to a level below investment grade, and that would have been truly calamitous for the whole UK economy. So in fact the ConLib government of 2010-2015 somewhat had its hands tied when it came to freedom to run up any big-figure budget deficits.
 
Pulling the trigger on some infrastructure projects while concreate and steal are cheep isn’t a bad idea. There will still also up being some spending increases due to things like additional EI payments when unemployment goes up. Otherwise, though I’m more of the mindset to keep government spending stable and predictable and leaving the stimulus to the central bank.



Oh........ this is broadly my position too (though I'd advocate a small contraction in government spending, in order to prevent the deficit running away) :confused:
 
And I hear what you and others (and many economists) say about a Keynesian approach to public spending. I (and many economists) think differently:

The short-term impact of fiscal stimulus isn’t something most economists seriously question. The counterpoint to Keynesian economics was not that that it didn’t work it was that monetary policy is much more effective in most situations.
 
Oh........ this is broadly my position too (though I'd advocate a small contraction in government spending, in order to prevent the deficit running away) :confused:

The deficit running away isn’t a real problem unless you are stretched to the limit of what your government can borrow, which the UK was not. The deficit that results from an economic downturn isn’t structural, it goes away on it’s when the economy recovers unless you do something stupid like make permanent tax cuts under the guise of stimulus.

From a business perspective, you definitely want government spending to be stable and predictable. From an economics perspective, in a normal downturn you could in theory offset the negative impact of an austerity program with monetary stimulus. The risk is that if you overshoot with monetary stimulus you end up with an inflation problem.

2009, however, was not normal. Real interest rates dropped so low central bankers were “pushing on a string”. Under these conditions they need to apply massive stimulus to get even modest effects and there is significant risk of overshooting and creating inflation.
 
Pulling the trigger on some infrastructure projects while concreate and steal are cheep isn’t a bad idea. There will still also up being some spending increases due to things like additional EI payments when unemployment goes up. Otherwise, though I’m more of the mindset to keep government spending stable and predictable and leaving the stimulus to the central bank.
Maybe that used to be true and will be again some day. The last few bust cycles seemed to feature corps taking that easy credit, sitting on the cash or buying back shares and the board rewarding themselves for it. So there the money sits "waiting for market indicators" to show reason for investing in the business. Since everyone is waiting for those indicators, the recovery stays sluggish.

If the government takes the same "tighten our belts" approach as households and businesses, where does the slide end?

We bungled the recovery so bad, we've actually dropped into a lower equilibrium since the 08/09 recession.
 
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Maybe that used to be true and will be again some day. The last few bust cycles seemed to feature corps taking that easy credit, sitting on the cash or buying back shares and the board rewarding themselves for it. So there the money sits "waiting for market indicators" to show reason for investing in the business. Since everyone is waiting for those indicators, the recovery stays sluggish.

If the government takes the same "tighten our belts" approach as households and businesses, where does the slide end?

We bungled the recovery so bad, we've actually dropped into a lower equilibrium since the 08/09 recession.

The 2008/09 recession was a somewhat unique situation I’d be careful about drawing to many conclusions from it.

In a normal economy, like we have now, when a company buys back stock the money paid for that stock goes to someone else who then spends it. In fact you would never “sit on money” at all because inflation erodes the value of money you don’t utilize. If they have excess cash it will either spend it or lend it almost immediately. (Lend it, in this context can mean any form of short, mid or long-term investment.)


Central bank balance sheets are high, real interest rates are still very low so we are not as far removed from the 2009 economy as many would like. It’s conceivable that the economic shock from Brexit could have a similar result for the UK but there probably isn’t much risk elsewhere.
 
The 2008/09 recession was a somewhat unique situation I’d be careful about drawing to many conclusions from it.



In a normal economy, like we have now, when a company buys back stock the money paid for that stock goes to someone else who then spends it. In fact you would never “sit on money” at all because inflation erodes the value of money you don’t utilize. If they have excess cash it will either spend it or lend it almost immediately. (Lend it, in this context can mean any form of short, mid or long-term investment.)





Central bank balance sheets are high, real interest rates are still very low so we are not as far removed from the 2009 economy as many would like. It’s conceivable that the economic shock from Brexit could have a similar result for the UK but there probably isn’t much risk elsewhere.
I'd also forgotten to point out that there's an outcome impacted by both monetary and fiscal instruments that has to be considered: bond yields. Especially for those events where a liquidity crunch is a big factor.
 
The short-term impact of fiscal stimulus isn’t something most economists seriously question. The counterpoint to Keynesian economics was not that that it didn’t work it was that monetary policy is much more effective in most situations.



I'd agree totally. It should always come down to the question of what is judged to be the best (or sometimes least-bad) mechanism. And you and I seem to be in agreement that in a deep financial crisis, stimulation through adjusting the control of the money supply is the best (or maybe least-bad) mechanism.
 
The deficit running away isn’t a real problem unless you are stretched to the limit of what your government can borrow, which the UK was not.



Well actually, Moody's (the preeminent credit ratings agency for sovereign debt instruments) put the UK on notice in 2011, and downgraded the UK in 2013 (with another warning of potential further downgrades if GDP forecasts and government defecits continued moving in the wrong direction). There actually was a further downgrade in either 2016 or 2017.

Had the UK received a quick double downgrade in 2013, it would (obviously) have had a serious impact on the cost of government borrowing - if indeed the government would have been able to get gilt auctions away at all in those circumstances. Furthermore, it could have triggered a domino effect, if significant investers in government bonds decided that they'd rather place their funds with AAA-rated sovereign debt.
 
Chancellor says farmers will thrive and 'boom' after Brexit.
But, just in case he's giving them 3 billion quid.
 
Drinks maker Diageo is moving its vodka production out of Scotland because of Brexit. Smirnoff production is shifting to Italy & US with loss of 105 jobs.
 
Drinks maker Diageo is moving its vodka production out of Scotland because of Brexit. Smirnoff production is shifting to Italy & US with loss of 105 jobs.



Well.....

1) This move was announced in 2017

2) Diageo said nothing about Brexit as the rationale for the move. Diageo said "Following the disposal of our wine business and the subsequent end of the wine bottling contracts, we have reviewed our spirits bottling footprint to ensure we not only deliver leading performance for both our domestic and export supply chains around the world, but also to strengthen our business for the future.Regrettably, these changes may impact some roles in our European bottling plants towards the end of the year and we will now enter a period of consultation with our employees and their representatives to discuss the proposals in more detail." It was only the GMB union which claimed it was all to do with Brexit.

3) Diageo continues to operate two bottling plants in Scotland. At the time of the 2017 announcement, Diageo employed 1,300 people in its two bottling plants in Glasgow and Fife. A 105-job reduction would therefore equate to a reduction of around 8% of the workforce.

Other than that.....


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...inks-company-scottish-employees-a7693511.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-39657013
 
Chancellor says farmers will thrive and 'boom' after Brexit.
But, just in case he's giving them 3 billion quid.



Err yes: the £3 million is a straight replacement for 1) the direct payments farmers currently receive under the EU's Common Agricultural Policy scheme, and 2) other development payments UK agriculture currently receives from the EU.
 
Err yes: the £3 million is a straight replacement for 1) the direct payments farmers currently receive under the EU's Common Agricultural Policy scheme, and 2) other development payments UK agriculture currently receives from the EU.
I am fairly sure that the EU money that has been saved is all going to the NHS. This must have come from the magic money tree.
 
I'd agree totally. It should always come down to the question of what is judged to be the best (or sometimes least-bad) mechanism. And you and I seem to be in agreement that in a deep financial crisis, stimulation through adjusting the control of the money supply is the best (or maybe least-bad) mechanism.

It does not look like we agree at all. Monetary policy is the best tool for a normal run of the mill recession, but it looses nearly all of it’s effectiveness in a very deep downturn. In a deflationary economy there is an incentive to simply sit on money, neither investing nor spending it. When prices are dropping the real value of money increases when it’s just sitting idle while business decline in vale because the value of their products is dropping.

What you need in this case is to stimulate aggregate demand. The most straightforward way is to increase government spending. You can also try to increase consumer spending by encouraging people to borrow, but once real interest rates are at zero this gets difficult as well. Either way you will be increasing total government + consumer debt. If you successfully reduce government debt though an austerity program it means you need that much more debt on the consumer side of things, which has the potential to go south real fast when interest rates go back up.

The other alternative that gets thrown around on the monetarist side is “helicopter money” in which the central bank prints money and just gives it away fro free to consumers who then, hopefully, spend it. I do not see how this could be a better option than lending that money to the government who then spends it on infrastructure and social programs. This way the money is definitely spent, or goes to the people most likely to spend it immediately.

In normal economic ups and downs you want gove3rnemnt tom focus on long term structural deficits, not the deficit/surplus at the time. In the deepest downturns, however, fiscal stimulus still has a very important role to play and austerity can potentially turn a manageable situation into an economic catastrophe.


Well actually, Moody's (the preeminent credit ratings agency for sovereign debt instruments) put the UK on notice in 2011, and downgraded the UK in 2013 (with another warning of potential further downgrades if GDP forecasts and government defecits continued moving in the wrong direction). There actually was a further downgrade in either 2016 or 2017.

Those ratings mean almost nothing for significant economies who control their own currency. The BoE could literally create money from nothing to pay off any and all government debts.

The risk you incur by lending to the UK is purely in the form of inflation and currency devaluation. But consider the context. In conditions like those that followed the 2009/09 recession the economic risk was deflation and slow economic growth. The former is the polar opposite of inflation risk while the latter would if it occurred create strong export growth.
There actually was a further downgrade in either 2016 or 2017.
Following the Brexit vote…

Brexit, and especially a no deal Brexit, sets the UK up for a major economic downturn. This will force the BoE to print money and with inflation already very low there is once again a risk of deflation. If the UK government once again responds with austerity, the UK once again risks that deep recession becoming a deflationary spiral and full on depression which could take decades to recover from.
 
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I am fairly sure that the EU money that has been saved is all going to the NHS. This must have come from the magic money tree.
We always paid more into the EU then we got back. Therefore, when we no longer have to pay the EU we can choose to directly pay the farmers exactly the same amount as they formerly got indirectly, and there will still be surplus money left over that can fund the NHS or whatever else the politicians choose to spend it on.
 
We always paid more into the EU then we got back. Therefore, when we no longer have to pay the EU we can choose to directly pay the farmers exactly the same amount as they formerly got indirectly, and there will still be surplus money left over that can fund the NHS or whatever else the politicians choose to spend it on.
Ah, more Brexiteer economic illiteracy.
:rolleyes:
 
We always paid more into the EU then we got back. Therefore, when we no longer have to pay the EU we can choose to directly pay the farmers exactly the same amount as they formerly got indirectly, and there will still be surplus money left over that can fund the NHS or whatever else the politicians choose to spend it on.
We will still need to pay the EU for those aspects of EU membership we don't want to give up. We will also need to recreate all the EU functions that we previously only paid 1/28 of the cost. We also need to compensate for the revenues from businesses who leave left the UK. We also pumped the equivalent of 3 years of EU funding into the economy post the brexit vote to stave off the effects. As Rees-Mogg said it will take 50 years for the UK to recover from the brexit shock.
Don't pretend that we will be better off outside the EU.
 
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