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Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

But you don't know a spirit guide from a carnival side show. Why does it matter what they believe?
Nonsense. You're still trying to borrow little bits of various religious traditions and pretending they form a coherent whole.

Phew ! that's a relief. When I saw your name I thought I was going to face a dissection of everything I have just said and a list of awkward questions. I got off lightly.

I might as well change the name of this thread to 'defending the indefensible' Because that is what I seem to be trying to do.

I am entrenched in my beliefs as it took a long time to come to such conclusions, and I can't remember where I got it all from. Some of my views undoubtedly come from 'White Eagle' who I now regard as a fake. But I cannot easily separate what I heard from White Eagle in Grace Cooks trance lectures from what I heard elsewhere.
 
Because the Angles of Karma picked the "Hitler" incarnation for that particular spirit knowing full well what he would do. They picked it, according to you, because the incarnation contained experiences that they deemed necessary to experience because of past "karmic debts".
There is also another niggle in this idea. When the first spirit was created why was it created with a karma debt?
 
There is also another niggle in this idea. When the first spirit was created why was it created with a karma debt?

It wasn't. we were created innocent, but when we started making our own choices, we descended into the cycle of reincarnation and karma.
 
I wonder how much negative karma you earn by choosing to believe manifestly ridiculous nonsense, against all available evidence, simply because you'd like it to be true.
 
Yes ! I believe God and the angels of karma can see the future.


If the future is already written, then people have no free will.

In Act III, Hamlet has no ability to just take off for England and open a hattery. Gertrude can't get a divorce and become a traveling minstrel. The play has already been written. The author knows the ending. Both these characters have to die in Act V. They have no choice.

If God knows the future, such that he can skip and read ahead, then we have no freedom to choose any other path than that which is set for up.

In what way do you disagree?
 
It's quite simple, really.

The matter in our universe is comprised of the same elemental stuff throughout. Proportions differ and it might be mixed together differently here and there, but it's the same stuff. Some of those mixes develop self-replication under certain conditions. Self-replication can perpetuated through the ability to use energy, respond to external stimuli, grow, reproduce, etc. and we call that life. Different forms of external stimuli have favored sophisticated sensory systems, complex nervous systems, memory, and communications in certain branchlets of a vast evolutionary bush.

One tiny bud on a branchlet of that bush has developed in an extraordinary way. Tremendous brain power – perhaps first developed so well to help make sense of complex social dynamics in a long-lived species, to support spatial memory of resource allocation during lean times, and to promote complex coordination of action and anticipation of events that enhanced survivorship – happened to combine high intelligence and manual dexterity. Those were the raw materials for technological advances that created abundance sufficient to afford the luxury of devoting our intelligence to matters beyond mere survival. One result of that was the desire and ability to study, catalog, and develop tests to help us learn more about the natural world. From within those endeavors came the revelation that... we are comprised of the same elemental stuff as the stars and planets and comets, etc.

WE are the physical and intellectual manifestation of a sentient universe. The universe developed the ability to examine itself. That's us. That's it. Sagan's "We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself" is not only more profound a revelation than any fairy tale in any holy book, it carries the added gravitas that comes from being true.
 
If the future is already written, then people have no free will.

In Act III, Hamlet has no ability to just take off for England and open a hattery. Gertrude can't get a divorce and become a traveling minstrel. The play has already been written. The author knows the ending. Both these characters have to die in Act V. They have no choice.

If God knows the future, such that he can skip and read ahead, then we have no freedom to choose any other path than that which is set for up.

In what way do you disagree?

God and the angels see the future as it will be, but seeing is not meddling. We have to find our own way to make things happen. Our free actions are a part of what makes the future and it is why the journey is so long. We make mistakes because of our lack of evolution or ignorance, those mistakes cause consequences, and we have to account for them. It goes on and on over countless lives, until we are cleansed of all karma.
 
Phew ! that's a relief. When I saw your name I thought I was going to face a dissection of everything I have just said and a list of awkward questions.

I did give it lengthy dissection in the other thread. As usual, you ignored it because you don't have answers for any of the hard questions.

I might as well change the name of this thread to 'defending the indefensible' Because that is what I seem to be trying to do.

Yes. No one seems to figure out why.



I am entrenched in my beliefs as it took a long time to come to such conclusions...

I don't care. If you can't answer the hard questions and reconcile the contradiction, it's just made up gobbledy gook. I don't believe in "trance lectures" and I don't accept them as authoritative. Show me facts.
 
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God and the angels see the future as it will be, but seeing is not meddling. We have to find our own way to make things happen. Our free actions are a part of what makes the future and it is why the journey is so long. We make mistakes because of our lack of evolution or ignorance, those mistakes cause consequences, and we have to account for them. It goes on and on over countless lives, until we are cleansed of all karma.
We went through this pages ago. If God and the angels have no effectual power then in what way do they ensure any of the things your system requires them to ensure? Why won't everything just automatically work out the way it should without them? How do they, for example, rig it so that people who get gypped by dying in a war get a nice cushy life next time? Your gods aren't gods.
 
Ture, seeing is not meddling, but it kills freedom, because we cannot choose any other path than that which has already been seen.

But it is meddling because they put people in situations knowing how those situations will play out, they could have put Hitler into a life where he'd never have had the opportunity to become dictator of Germany. Even worse they put Piers Morgan in a life where he gets to be on TV instead of a goat farmer in Mudpuddle, Arkansas.
 
It wasn't. we were created innocent, but when we started making our own choices, we descended into the cycle of reincarnation and karma.
You contradict yourself again. According to you when your karma angels decide what at life we have to experience they are making the decision on how much karma we have to pay off or earn. Yet we started neutral, so if we accumulated a negative one karma balance that was the choice of of your angels not our own choice.
 
God and the angels see the future as it will be, but seeing is not meddling. We have to find our own way to make things happen. Our free actions are a part of what makes the future and it is why the journey is so long. We make mistakes because of our lack of evolution or ignorance, those mistakes cause consequences, and we have to account for them. It goes on and on over countless lives, until we are cleansed of all karma.
When we were created we were all karma free so why do we have to do anything?
 
When we were created we were all karma free so why do we have to do anything?
And you have to comment on the immorality of bringing something into existence that is pure and unsullied, only to allow it to become sullied and possibly suffer consequences it could have avoided simply by not existing in the first place. It's what happens when you want to believe in Eastern mysticism, but you just can't let go of Original Sin. And all of this is presided over by omnipotent beings who have absolutely no actual power. Imagine being omnipotent and not being allowed to exercise it.
 
I am entrenched in my beliefs as it took a long time to come to such conclusions, and I can't remember where I got it all from.

I wanted to revisit this. Normally the hallmark of having spent considerable time studying something is the ability to discuss it knowledgeably. This means you should have already worked through the contradictions and the what-ifs and be able to answer hard questions about how your religion is supposed to work. That's a defensible brand of entrenchment. It's being sure enough of one's information as the result of considerable critical thinking about it.

Your entrenchment is the opposite. You're obviously just making it all up as you go, even in this supposedly late stage of your study. You ignore the hard questions and flip-flop on all the glaring contradictions. It doesn't help your case to admit that you can't remember by what "authority" you heard some particular thing. This is the brand of entrenchment that springs from a strong desire to believe something. Everything after that is a dishonest exercise in supporting the belief, not a rational examination of the available facts and the logical inferences.
 
I think that is giving it too much credit, it's simply a hodge podge of things Scorpion thinks he has heard, the only filter being used is "what makes me feel good".
 
The spirit guides teach all life forms have an immortal soul.
That also makes no sense.

A bacteria doesn't have an "immortal soul". What about a frog? What about a budgerigar?

At what level of evolutionary complexity does your "god" say "Hey, that budgerigar needs a spirit guide as it was a mass murderer in its previous life"?
 

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The spiritualist medium Ursula Roberts said in a trance lecture that every action, and every reaction to it must be accounted for before a soul can be free of rebirths. So I could weep for Hitler, because he has a very long struggle ahead of him which will last for many incarnations. But even Hitler's karma must be insignificant compared with Muhammad's because he started a religion based on evil lies about God, and the effects of that are still going to go on for untold centuries into the future. It is hard to see how Muhammad will ever be able to account for all the wars his lies have started.

Karma is not an easy ride.

Not for nothing did Buddha say, "live harmlessly, and kill nothing"

This post is an intellectual mess.

This relies on the eastern philosophy of balance, and while that's nifty as a philosophy it makes for a dead universe. There is no such thing a s balance in the big picture because almost everything is in some kind of motion down to the subatomic level. Nor should a wise person want a universe where there is balance because nothing would change for the better, nothing would evolve, nothing would die.

Then the idea that the universe keeps score is counterproductive because...why bother? If my life sucks and it's because of something I did before I was born then what's the point of my current life? What's the point of helping others if the universe is busy punishing them for their phantom past?

And your crack about Islam is wrong and uncalled for.
 

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