Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

[Scorpion]

Did those trance mediums teach you that the things you are bringing here "may" be true, or that they are true?

If they said these things "may" then there is no reason to believe them as they were obviously unsure. The word is ambiguous.

If they said these things are true then why would you change what they said?

They said these things are true, I simply cannot confirm such things for myself.

 

[abaddon]

They said these things are true, I simply cannot confirm such things for myself.

Why would you believe it if you have no confirmation?

 

[Scorpion]

That gives you an enormous philosophical problem. Do you think the Holocaust happened because it was a good thing in the long run?

I can't use the word 'good' for such things.
I think it was a part of the growing pains of the human race. There were perpetrators and victims, the Germans will probably have to account for it in the future, and maybe the victims were guilty of cruel acts in past tribal conflicts. In the long run all wounds will heal, including the mental ones.

I heard it said a Jewish man who was killed was stuck in a state of limbo and he could not progress onward, because he could not forgive the Germans.

 

[Scorpion]

Why would you believe it if you have no confirmation?

I built up an overall picture of things from hearing many trance lectures. Several mediums said similar things. I tend to think what they said was basically true. But I don't actually know.

 

[abaddon]

I built up an overall picture of things from hearing many trance lectures. Several mediums said similar things. I tend to think what they said was basically true. But I don't actually know.

Several christians say similar things.
Several muslims say similar things.
Several buddhists say similar things.
And so on.

Does that mean they must be right?

Argumentum ad populum for the win?

And if you admit that you haven't the foggirst clue, why on earth would you believe it?

 

[abaddon]

I can't use the word 'good' for such things.
I think it was a part of the growing pains of the human race. There were perpetrators and victims, the Germans will probably have to account for it in the future, and maybe the victims were guilty of cruel acts in past tribal conflicts. In the long run all wounds will heal, including the mental ones.

I heard it said a Jewish man who was killed was stuck in a state of limbo and he could not progress onward, because he could not forgive the Germans.

But is not the entire concept of "Angels of Karma" putting people in horrible incarnations for the greater "good" in the long term? That is what you believe.

 

[wasapi]

According to the spirit guides I have heard, the journey of the soul is a long road, it goes on for countless lives on many different planets. Hitler narrowly escaped death in the first world war, and that made him believe he had a destiny. Churchill too believed he was fulfilling his destiny. Maybe they were both right.

We are played off against each other, and in that way our souls are forced to grow.

The very suggestion that "Hitler was fulfilling his destiny", guided by something spiritual, against his control. is more offensive then I can say.

 

[Scorpion]

The very suggestion that "Hitler was fulfilling his destiny", guided by something spiritual, against his control. is more offensive then I can say.

If there is a God, and if there are angels doing God's bidding. Then Hitler and his minions were permitted to carry out their actions by those powers.

The alternative is there is no God and no plan and life is an accident.

You may believe such in such chaos, but I do not.

I don't say Hitler was guided against his control, I say he acted out of his own evil nature.

 

[Loss Leader]

If there is a God, and if there are angels doing God's bidding. Then Hitler and his minions were permitted to carry out their actions by those powers.

So there is a grand plan and, as such, people don't really have free will.

I don't say Hitler was guided against his control, I say he acted out of his own evil nature.

So there is no plan and people have free will.

Which is it?

 

[Scorpion]

So there is a grand plan and, as such, people don't really have free will.

So there is no plan and people have free will.

Which is it?

I do not see the contradiction. God has a perfect plan for our spiritual evolution, and that allows us freedom of action. We act and cause a reaction.
That is the whole story. We were originally created as immortal, untried, untested spirits. But then we started making choices for ourselves and subsequently descended from the spirit world into the mortal world, for experience sake.

 

[Loss Leader]

I do not see the contradiction. God has a perfect plan for our spiritual evolution, and that allows us freedom of action. We act and cause a reaction. That is the whole story. We were originally created as immortal, untried, untested spirits. But then we started making choices for ourselves and subsequently descended from the spirit world into the mortal world, for experience sake.

One question:

1. Does God know the future?

 

[Scorpion]

One question:

1. Does God know the future?

Yes ! I believe God and the angels of karma can see the future.

 

[Humots]

I do not see the contradiction. God has a perfect plan for our spiritual evolution, and that allows us freedom of action. We act and cause a reaction.
That is the whole story. We were originally created as immortal, untried, untested spirits. But then we started making choices for ourselves and subsequently descended from the spirit world into the mortal world, for experience sake.

Allowing us freedom of action requires us to make choices for ourselves.

And if we are not perfect, then of course we will make mistakes.

Why not create us as perfect spirits in the first place, with no need for trying and testing? Can God not do that?

We warn our children if they are about to make a bad choice, but we do not then abandon them to the consequences if they didn't listen.

If I warn my daughter not to touch a hot object, and then I see her about to do so, I will not just say to myself "Well, I warned her. Let her go ahead and feel the pain, then she'll learn." No, I stop her.

Is God so limited that in order to create us (for whatever reason) he could only do so by putting us in a universe full of danger and then allowing the worst to happen so that we would learn by experience?

By the way: how can we learn by experience if, as you say, we don't remember those experiences?

 

[Scorpion]

Allowing us freedom of action requires us to make choices for ourselves.

And if we are not perfect, then of course we will make mistakes.

Why not create us as perfect spirits in the first place, with no need for trying and testing? Can God not do that?

We warn our children if they are about to make a bad choice, but we do not then abandon them to the consequences if they didn't listen.

If I warn my daughter not to touch a hot object, and then I see her about to do so, I will not just say to myself "Well, I warned her. Let her go ahead and feel the pain, then she'll learn." No, I stop her.

Is God so limited that in order to create us (for whatever reason) he could only do so by putting us in a universe full of danger and then allowing the worst to happen so that we would learn by experience?

By the way: how can we learn by experience if, as you say, we don't remember those experiences?

I believe God created at least two separate species. Our human spirits, and the race of angels. The angels never incarnate and have little choice but to serve the will of God because his power is obvious to them. There may be some truth in the story of the fallen angel, but the spirit world teaches there is no supreme devil. It has been said that sometimes the angels envy us our struggles, because they are all they can be. But we are on the long road of self discovery and free choice. We cannot be made perfect by magic and need to experience life for ourselves. We are all sons of God and we will all have to realize the power within us for ourselves over many lives.

We do not remember past lives except the most recent incarnation until we complete the journey and reach enlightenment, but all memory is stored in the soul body. In the meantime we are guided into our incarnations by the angels who know what is best for us.
The souls character shines through us in our incarnations and we may be more, or less spiritually evolved. I heard a spirit guide say that Mozart was a musician in nine previous incarnations before becoming the prodigy. So we carry our development with us into future incarnations even though we do not remember where we got our characteristics.

As for not letting your daughter touch hot objects, you cannot always stop her making bad choices in life, and she has to learn for herself. Sooner or later you have to let go.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

The spiritualist medium Ursula Roberts said in a trance lecture that every action, and every reaction to it must be accounted for before a soul can be free of rebirths.

Did she present any statistical evidence.......Nope.

So I could weep for Hitler, because he has a very long struggle ahead of him which will last for many incarnations.

Nope. Hitler, a failed artist, took over a conservative political party, killed 32,000,000 humans and then blew his own brains out. No one weeps for him.

But even Hitler's karma must be insignificant compared with Muhammad's

Muhammad, a merchant, took over a religious cult (Christianity) and unified the Arab peninsula through politics and warfare killing roughly 1,000 people. He died of old age at 62.

The total of all casualties on all sides in all the battles of Muhammad might be more or less 1000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_career_of_Muhammad

 

[Matthew Ellard]

I believe God created at least two separate species.

So which early humans were not created by "God"?

Ardipithecus ramidus
Australopithecus anamensis
Australopithecus afarensis
Australopithecus africanus
Australopithecus aethiopicus
Australopithecus robustus
Australopithecus boisei
Homo habilis
Homo erectus
Homo sapiens (archaic)
Homo sapiens neanderthalensis
Homo sapiens sapiens (modern)

Why did spirits suddenly pop up out of nowhere for later humans?

 

[arthwollipot]

Yes !

Except I said the spirit does not know what it did in ' previous' incarnations, not the last one. We remember our last lifetime, but we cannot access previous lives. The memory of all those lives is stored in the soul body in perfect detail. But we will not remember them until the end of our cycle of rebirths.

So you will suffer, and you will deserve it, but you won't know why you deserve it.

What a vile idea.

 

[Scorpion]

So which early humans were not created by "God"?

Ardipithecus ramidus
Australopithecus anamensis
Australopithecus afarensis
Australopithecus africanus
Australopithecus aethiopicus
Australopithecus robustus
Australopithecus boisei
Homo habilis
Homo erectus
Homo sapiens (archaic)
Homo sapiens neanderthalensis
Homo sapiens sapiens (modern)

Why did spirits suddenly pop up out of nowhere for later humans?

The spirit guides teach all life forms have an immortal soul.
Lower creatures like insects have group souls made up by many individuals.
Higher animals like dogs, and humans have an individual soul.

I do not know what happened to early man, or for that matter what happened to the dinosaurs. But they may simply have evolved into higher species. The birds are descendants of dinosaurs so maybe those monsters have evolved and refined into the birds we know today.

 

[JayUtah]

All I have is the teachings of trance mediums I listened to in the 1970's. I cannot know if what they said is true, but I believe most of it probably is.

But why? You admit you can't feel if it's genuine. You listen to us showing you the blatant contradiction and stupidity in these claims. Yet still you believe.

 

[JayUtah]

The spirit guides teach all life forms have an immortal soul.

But you don't know a spirit guide from a carnival side show. Why does it matter what they believe?

Lower creatures like insects have group souls made up by many individuals.

Nonsense. You're still trying to borrow little bits of various religious traditions and pretending they form a coherent whole.