Does the IDF target civilians?

webfusion said:
No answer, just more of the same HRW, B'Tselem and the discredited lies of Hedges.
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Who discredited Hedges? Links please. And what's wrong with HRW, B'Tselem and AI?

webfusion said:
I want to know something about a specific case, and Orwell is avoiding talking about it. Why is that?
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I did discuss it briefly (post 150). According to the eye-witness account on the B'Tselem site:
Usage of Palestinian civilians as human shields. Executing an alleged "Palestinian terrorist" after he was disarmed and immobilised. We have no idea who this guy was, or what he was accused of.
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That's one link, out of a bunch of them, and it's not even the most serious accusations being made by HRW, B'Tselem and AI.
 
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wrong case, orwell.

No, No.

You are off the mark.

I asked you about the incident where a Palestinian man was killed in Jenin yesterday, and you are talking about Ed Knows what.

I'll review, to get you back on target.

Let's look at one well-publicized incident of a Palestinian civilian being killed just today. It is in the news story linked to RIGHT HERE.
This is what the report indicates:
  • In the course of the Wednesday clashes (during a huge IDF military operation in Jenin), IDF troops shot dead a local man who hurled rocks at an army patrol, Palestinian witnesses and hospital officials said. 11-23-05

Orwell, I have to ask you, in all seriousness, if you wish to bring any credibility to your side of the discussion now, can you indicate whether or not you think this was a classic case of the IDF targetting a civilian?

This has nothing to do with human shields or B'Tselem or even the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Please pay attention, I know you are running along here full steam ahead, but try to focus, Orwell.

AS for Hedges, if you don't wish to research his little fabrication and understand that his story is a lie, that's OK, you are free to remain ignorant of the truth, nobody is forcing you to look at the information of HonestReporting about Hedges being a huge a&&hole. I personally have no problem saying that Hedges is a liar and his account cannot stand close scrutiny.

The IDF does not target civilians.
 
Chris Hedges report appears to me to be honest and unbiased. Eg, he mentions anti-semitic propaganda playing on Egyptian TV, he is held hostage by a Palestinian gunman, whom he portrays as ignorant and doomed to young die due to that ignorance.

"Honest Reporting"

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They are biased, in that they only wish to report on the perceived bias against Israel. If they wish to be unbiased, I would expect them to take a balanced approach to all reporting on the issue.
 
webfusion said:
TMY -- "In short, they do not value Pali lives."

Sickening.
Being drunk (on too many rum-n-cokes) would indeed provide a logical explanation for such a wicked statement about the Israelis. Shut off your computer until you are sober, TMY, is my advice.
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You dont seriously think the IDF thinks that Palistinian lives are on the same par as the Israelie lives. Its not a wicked statement, all countries think this way. You think an IDF agent would just as easily open fire into an Israeli crowd in order to stop a terrorist? You think the US would bomb a building that house Saddams sons if they were hiding out in Paris instead of somewheresville Iraq? HELLS NO!
 
die young

aup mentions that Hedges can be considered reliable in his account of the IDF troops firing at the kids essentially for no other reason than for sport.
I read the details and form an opposite view of his reliability.

But, that is not what we are here discussing, the veracity of one source or another. In the overall picture of the IDF facing Palestinian civilians over the course of 60 years almost, it cannot be said that the IDF targets civilians for death in the course of their operations. Not in full scale wars and not in the intifadah phase (which began, BTW, in 1987, not 2000). Not one scintilla of evidence shows that the IDF has the intention, nor the implementation of any plan or policy, to kill Palestinians merely because they are Palestinians, and need to be killed.

This entire suggestion is totally out of bounds.

An interesting quote:
"(Hedges) is held hostage by a Palestinian gunman, whom Hedges portrays as ignorant and doomed to die young due to that ignorance."

Yeah, he'll die, in the sights of an IDF marksman, and someone will probably come along and add his name to a list of palestinians who got shot by the IDF, and mix that in with other Palestinians who were "targeted" by the IDF.

What a system.
 
webfusion said:
aup mentions that Hedges can be considered reliable in his account of the IDF troops firing at the kids essentially for no other reason than for sport.
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He says yes, Honestreporting says no. He was there, they weren't. His other comments in the article seem honest. He reports no more than what he saw, including anti-semitic propaganda.
 
Yes, TMY, I am here to tell you, and I know it to be true:
Palistinian lives are on the same par as the Israeli lives.

Israelis live alongside Palestinians in Israel, TMY. They are doctors, lawyers, truck drivers, accountants, schoolteachers, etc. The IDF is absolutely concerned with keeping a sense of neutrality and just today, a story appears which fully and clearly supports my contention that IDF policy is to take every opportunity to treat the Palestinians in a respectful, honest and fair way.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/649120.html
(this is the third time I'm linking within this thread to this same breaking-news story, have you read it even once?)
  • On Wednesday evening, IDF troops evacuated a Palestinian mother and her two-year-old child from a house near the scene of the continuing exchange of gunfire between soldiers and Palestinians, after the boy had a severe asthma attack.
    The governor of the Jenin district asked the Israeli civil authority to allow the transfer of the mother and the child. As they were taken from the house, soldiers held their fire while a Palestinian ambulance arrived to take the child to the hospital.

Now, go back to your rum and stop here.
 
webfusion said:
The IDF is absolutely concerned with keeping a sense of neutrality and just today, a story appears which fully and clearly supports my contention that IDF policy is to take every opportunity to treat the Palestinians in a respectful, honest and fair way.
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I would contend "every opportunity". That is just not true. The IDF is made up of individuals, who span the usual spectrum of human types, from the honest to the dishonest, the civil to the brutal, etc. The 12 year old girl who had a whole automatic magazine emptied into her was not a victim of "respect". That there are humane and decent people on both sides of the issue is never open to debate, we have to have 'faith' in human nature. That atrocities are committed by both sides is also beyond dispute, in my opinion.
 
webfusion said:
a story appears which fully and clearly supports my contention that IDF policy is to take every opportunity to treat the Palestinians in a respectful, honest and fair way.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/649120.html
(this is the third time I'm linking within this thread to this same breaking-news story, have you read it even once?)
[.
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I read the story. Heres a little gem that stands out:

"In the course of the Wednesday clashes, troops shot dead a local man who hurled rocks at an army patrol, witnesses and hospital officials said."

Shot to death for throwing rocks??? In what country is that acceptable behavior for a police force? Is it any surpise human rights orgs complain about them.

So the IDF doesnt mow down every Palistinian every time they have an opportunity. Big F'n deal. That doesnt translate to them being saints.
 
hedges is a liar

Hedges admits in the Harper's article that he did not see the boys shot -- they were "out of sight."
Hedges also says he didn't hear the shots being fired, which he (incorrectly) assumed meant that Israeli soldiers were using silencers.

Hedges is worthless as a reliable source, and for Orwell to bring his story forward as evidence of anything makes me laugh, a_u_p.

  • The IDF Spokesmen categorically reject the charge that soldiers entice Palestinian children to the fence.
    "The day described by Hedges was particularly violent near Gush Katif, the Spokesman said, with scores of Palestinians attacking soldiers with rocks and bottles and endangering their lives. The soldiers acted with restraint for hours, using anti-riot equipment. When the attacks continued, IDF fire was directed at the riot leaders, and two of them were seen being hit in their legs."

Right there, in black and white, the IDF admits that it targets civilians!
And the Human Rights For Justice & Peace puts it into their report:
Palestinians got shot by the IDF, illegally and immorally.

Good grief.
 
That's exactly what I'm asking Orwell.

TMY, don't let anyone accuse you of following this thread too closely.

I read the story. Heres a little gem that stands out:

"In the course of the Wednesday clashes, troops shot dead a local man who hurled rocks at an army patrol, witnesses and hospital officials said."

Shot to death for throwing rocks???
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That is exactly the same incident which I've been trying (to no avail) to get Orwell to address. I have been asking if he thinks this is a classic example of the IDF targeting civilians, and if this is wrong?

You answered the question, saying that you believe it is targeting and it is wrong.
Fair enough. I am convinced you are mistaken, but at least you gave an answer. ( I am convinced of your error, because I myself served in the IDF, and know exactly what a rock-throwing mob is cabable of, including killing me).

You cannot assume that this guy was standing there, all alone, chucking a few stones, and got killed for his efforts. Read the story, and it will be clear that the IDF partrol was under concentrated attack by mobs of people in Jenin (maybe thousands, under the conditions). The fact that just ONE guy was killed is amazing! That is the essence of the evidence, proving without a shadow of a doubt, the IDF does not target civilians.

You are assuming the opposite from what is really indicated by this report, unfortunately.
 
IDF spokesmen have categorically denied other things, that subsequently turned out to be true.
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And then, there are cases like Muhammed AlDurrah, in which no amount of denials by the IDF will ever convince people of the truth.

Do you have a comment on the case which TMY just noted? (the story I've been asking Orwell about for a while now, of the fellow shot yesterday in Jenin for rock-throwing).

Do you think the shooting is just one more case of the IDF targeting civilians, or is it a case of something else?
 
webfusion said:
Fair enough. I am convinced you are mistaken, but at least you gave an answer. ( I am convinced of your error, because I myself served in the IDF, and know exactly what a rock-throwing mob is cabable of, including killing me).
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Of cousre its dangerous. I agree. But in general, rock throwing does not equal bullet in the lung. If that were to happen in the US there'd be a whole lot of trouble for the police. (think Kent State).

Its not uncommon to put lives on diffrent pars. Its like when the police react to a shooting. They get to the crime scene quickly. But if a COP is the victim of the shooting, the police react with 10x the intensity. Not cause they dont value the life of regular joe shooting victim. They just care more about the cop.


And by the way, theres just way to many posts and links to really follow this thread.
 
webfusion said:
And then, there are cases like Muhammed AlDurrah, in which no amount of denials by the IDF will ever convince people of the truth.

Do you have a comment on the case which TMY just noted? (the story I've been asking Orwell about for a while now, of the fellow shot yesterday in Jenin for rock-throwing).

Do you think the shooting is just one more case of the IDF targeting civilians, or is it a case of something else?
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It is an example of why the IDF should not be there in the first place. Sharon apparently has plans to grant the Palestinians a state. That should be the time we see the end of such incidents.
 
webfusion said:
( I am convinced of your error, because I myself served in the IDF, and know exactly what a rock-throwing mob is cabable of, including killing me).
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And Im glad you let this info out. Cause I was gonna toss out the old "what do you know, have you ever been there!?" line. Man would I have been burned.
 
And by the way, there's just way too many posts and links to really follow this thread.
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Agreed. Thank Orwell for that.

BTW, the IDF are not 'police' -- IDF is an Armed Force engaged in combat operations against terrorists, and sometimes against other nations or terror groups (Hizbullah, for instance) who are attacking across the border.
 
a_u_p, the question was plain.
Is the IDF targeting civilians, using the example of this man being shot (in the process of rock-throwing)?

I am not going to engage in a discussion here about the comment you made that "IDF should not be there in the first place. " or "army of Occupation"
 
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