a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
I think there appears to be a confusion as to whether or not killings occur because it is the policy of the IDF to target civilians, or because individuals in the IDF target civilians?
It is pretty clear that individuals in the IDF target civilians (just go through all the links). Human rights organisations have routinely complained that the IDF looks the other way when this happens, they mention a culture of impunity (I can find the relevant links if someone wishes me to). It is also pretty clear that the IDF is careless about killing civilians during military operations (once again just look through all the damn links). What are we to conclude from this (if you're not a partisan hack, that is)? That higher ups in the IDF don't give a damn and condone this kind of behaviour.
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I've already posted this, but here's a reminder.
Israeli Soldiers Tell of Indiscriminate Killings by Army and a Culture of Impunity. Whistleblowers' testimony shows desire for revenge on Palestinians.
Israeli Soldiers Tell of Indiscriminate Killings by Army and a Culture of Impunity. Whistleblowers' testimony shows desire for revenge on Palestinians.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
But is it part of the rules of engagment to target civilians?
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Do you think they would officially admit to such a thing? Of course not! But by letting these things happen with near impunity they're effectively giving a "nudge nudge wink wink", something like "we know we shouldn't but every knows we can if we want to".
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a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
I will agree there are elements of the IDF that target civilians, that the IDF does not act against them, but that the official rules don't condone these acts, and that many individuals in the IDF would not participate in such acts.
There are also occasions when IDF members fire on civilians in 'self-defence' (another debate what actually constitutes this situation), but are forced to for just that reason. The question is whether they should be in that situation in the first place, that is, occupying the West Bank areas where Palestinians live.
There are also occasions when IDF members fire on civilians in 'self-defence' (another debate what actually constitutes this situation), but are forced to for just that reason. The question is whether they should be in that situation in the first place, that is, occupying the West Bank areas where Palestinians live.
I don't even know what the official rules are, and frankly, I don't care, so I never claimed that the official rules allowed for firing at civilians. I'm just reporting what I know is going on, what's happening in practice, not what the theory is. And yes, there are people in the IDF that refuse to go along with this. In fact, I quoted a few of them right here: http://www.jfjfp.org/BackgroundW/refusenik_pilots.htm
Oh, but I'm not denying that at all! Atrocities and abuses committed by Palestinians have already been extensively documented and discussed on this forum, ad nauseam. I figured it would be refreshing to criticise the IDF for a change (except that I never pretended that the Palestinians were above reproach). This entire thread turned into one occasion to remind certain people that atrocities are being committed by people on both sides.
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Or what Cleo? You're going to spank me or something?
Anyway, read the links, in particular posts 11, 12, 25, 48, 86 and 99. Keep in mind that if IDF commanders are giving orders to shoot civilians or encouraging soldiers to be careless about civilians, there won't be any paper trail.
What sort of argument is that? The same argument that Holocaust deniers use to question the Holocaust,right?
You are an idiot Orwel and you are so foolish that you don't even make it to my list of the antisemites of the forum. You are an ignorant,foolish little wanker.
Get in my -- I am not replying to your BS for as long as I consider appropriate list-- and stay here to discuss with the fanatics. You don't deserve my time, little wanker.
As for my dear friend aup he made it to my signature...
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webfusion
Philosopher
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2004
- Messages
- 9,795
Let Orwell have his fun...he's not proving anything... except that the IDF is an excellent fighting force, which other nations on earth could be proud to emulate their professionalism and abilities in similar circumstances.
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Orwell is going in circles:
"Anyway, read the links, in particular posts 11, 12, 25, 48, 86 and 99"
I read them and made specific rebuttal to the nonsense contained therin.
http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showpost.php?p=1289335&postcount=116
See my Post 116 of this thread.
- An IDF soldier arresting a Palestinian found with explosives (strapped to his body) at the Hawara checkpoint outside the West Bank city of Nablus on Thursday. (AP)
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Orwell is going in circles:
"Anyway, read the links, in particular posts 11, 12, 25, 48, 86 and 99"
I read them and made specific rebuttal to the nonsense contained therin.
http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showpost.php?p=1289335&postcount=116
See my Post 116 of this thread.
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webfusion
Philosopher
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2004
- Messages
- 9,795
Post 130 --
Mahmud A-Dab'i (referred to in the report as Mamoud Kmel for some unexplained reason) was apparently executed in the field, by IDF soldiers acting on orders. It was an extrajudicial killing of a wanted terrorist, from every indication in the narrative, and he was clearly, according to that eyewitness report offered by B'Tselem, not a civilian.
To bring it here to skeptics on the JREF as an example of IDF targeting civilians is really lame.
Mahmud A-Dab'i (referred to in the report as Mamoud Kmel for some unexplained reason) was apparently executed in the field, by IDF soldiers acting on orders. It was an extrajudicial killing of a wanted terrorist, from every indication in the narrative, and he was clearly, according to that eyewitness report offered by B'Tselem, not a civilian.
To bring it here to skeptics on the JREF as an example of IDF targeting civilians is really lame.
Elind
Philosopher
Gee, that's a powerful point
I don't know... Perhaps because all Palestinians are civilians according to some? You?
Perhaps because the IDF are lousy shots and don't aim at civilians specifically, they just aim at Palestinians and hope to hit a non civilian?
Perhaps because the Palestinian (non civilians?) hide behind civilians (?) who actively give them cover and make it hard to see exactly who is shooting from a group, or a nursing home or wherever?
I guess the only way to fight such a nobel philosophy (?) is to give up in case someone accuses one of DELIBERATELY TARGETING CIVILIANS AS A STATED POLICY OF WAR, which is what the accusation was.
Why can't you discuss that point directly?
Tmy
Philosopher
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2002
- Messages
- 6,487
Do you happen to have a link or story available? I tried a quick search but couldnt find anything on point.
Let Orwell have his fun...he's not proving anything... except that the IDF is an excellent fighting force, which other nations on earth could be proud to emulate their professionalism and abilities in similar circumstances.
- An IDF soldier arresting a Palestinian found with explosives (strapped to his body) at the Hawara checkpoint outside the West Bank city of Nablus on Thursday. (AP)
===========================
Orwell is going in circles:
"Anyway, read the links, in particular posts 11, 12, 25, 48, 86 and 99"
I read them and made specific rebuttal to the nonsense contained therin.
http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showpost.php?p=1289335&postcount=116
See my Post 116 of this thread.
You didn't rebut anything. I think that in a couple of instances, you simply quoted my own links back. And then you gave your own explanations about what was hapenning, essentially saying "believe me". To put it simply, if I have to chose between believing you (or the IDF's version of the facts) and believing human rights associations, I'll believe the human rights associations.
I invoke Goodwin's Law!
Sorry, but are you implying that I'm even worse than an anti-semite or something like that?
Aw, you're pissed off... See, I get pissed off too, specially when I think things are presented in a completely unfair one sided way! You don't like my "BS"? Well, I can't stand your BS, nor Webfusion's a-good-Palestinian-is-a-dead-Palestinian BS, Zenithy-Nadir's BS gives me the creeps, and Skeptic's BS has given me the heebie-jeebies on several occasions. Eh?!
Oh, and I almost forgot about Mycroft's BS! Now that's BS in an industrial scale!
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8 Dec. 04: Two-thirds of Palestinians Killed in the West Bank This Year Did not Participate in the Fighting
Two-thirds! But didn't Webfusion say that IDF soldiers were very professional, all good shots, and all that jazz?!
Two-thirds! But didn't Webfusion say that IDF soldiers were very professional, all good shots, and all that jazz?!
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