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Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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Back up. How would that change anything about her being a woman?

Woman is a social role derived from (but not always strictly dependent on) a biological fact. Woman-as-biological-fact is true enough as far as it goes, regardless of what anyone says or how anyone acts. But there's more to womanhood (and manhood) than that.
 
It depends on how she acted and how society felt about how she acted. For example, in some parts of Albania, gender roles are very rigidly defined, and in some cases a woman will act as a man and be treated as a man purely because of how she acts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_sworn_virgins

I'll take bets that if an Albanian sworn virgin joins the local health club, "he" wouldn't use the men's shower.
 
I'll take bets that if an Albanian sworn virgin joins the local health club, "he" wouldn't use the men's shower.

My understanding is that the practice has died out in the cosmopolitan regions, but in those remote communities where it is still observed, the sworn virgins do in fact use the men's facilities.
 
No.

You're mixing up genders and gender roles.

I'm saying that in practical terms the two are not separable.

I get that you see it differently, and that you're probably not going to ever see it my way. But that's how I see it. You see it differently, and will reach different conclusions.

I'm not sure why it's necessary to keep asking the same basic questions over and over again.
 
I'm saying that in practical terms the two are not separable.

Sure they are. One is the group in question, the other how those in that group are expected to act. That they don't act that way doesn't remove them from the group.

I'm not sure why it's necessary to keep asking the same basic questions over and over again.

Then why say it at all? If you didn't think it was worth the virtual ink, why write it? Or is it ok when you perpetuate the discussion but not I?
 
Not fine and dandy, just something people need to keep in mind (that humans are not perfect animals).

My main point is that humans are fallible and our society seems to forget this more and more as time goes on. People are pushing too hard. That's why I mentioned the Gillette commercial (or was that in another thread?).

You can't say the wrong word, wear the wrong hat, believe in something controversial or run a stop sign without major consequences anymore.

Many people believe society is becoming more tolerant. I think the opposite is true and that is concerning to me.

The word 'permissive' was once used where now it's 'tolerant', and the former is more apposite. We use a lot of words which have been consciously shoe-horned into our language to muddy thinking on issues like the one here.

So yes, the West has been growing more and more permissive, but for many (such as myself) less and less tolerant.
 
Sure they are. One is the group in question, the other how those in that group are expected to act. That they don't act that way doesn't remove them from the group.
The group is a social construct. How they act is part of how they are members of the group.

Then why say it at all? If you didn't think it was worth the virtual ink, why write it? Or is it ok when you perpetuate the discussion but not I?
What discussion?
 
The word 'permissive' was once used where now it's 'tolerant', and the former is more apposite. We use a lot of words which have been consciously shoe-horned into our language to muddy thinking on issues like the one here.



So yes, the West has been growing more and more permissive, but for many (such as myself) less and less tolerant.
Or more accurately less tolerant of intolerance, hatred and so on.
 
It depends on how she acted and how society felt about how she acted. For example, in some parts of Albania, gender roles are very rigidly defined, and in some cases a woman will act as a man and be treated as a man purely because of how she acts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_sworn_virgins

I think this example highlights my problem with citing third gender or transgender examples from other cultures. Sure, these are women living as men, so in a descriptive sense they are "transgender". But if you look at the actual nature of it, it is very different from transgender people as we define them.

In the cases I've seen, they occur in traditional societies with strictly enforced gender roles. In this case, these are women trying to escape their oppression. In other cases, it is society trying to fit a role for effeminate homosexual men, or in some cases enforce one like for the bacha bazi. They are not examples of societies that we would like to emulate, or lives we would like to live.

They aren't embracing their authentic selves and acting on an innate gender identity. They are oppressive societies' attempts at maintaining control over non-conformance.
 
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I think this example highlights my problem with citing third gender or transgender examples from other cultures. Sure, these are women living as men, so in a descriptive sense they are "transgender". But if you look at the actual nature of it, it is very different from transgender people as we define them.

In the cases I've seen, they occur in traditional societies with strictly enforced gender roles. In this case, these are women trying to escape their oppression. In other cases, it is society trying to fit a role for effeminate homosexual men, or in some cases enforce one like for the bacha bazi. They are not examples of societies that we would like to emulate, or lives we would like to live.
They aren't embracing their authentic selves and acting on an innate gender identity. They are oppressive societies' attempts at maintaining control over non-conformance.

QFT
 
The big difference is that we're talking about species with oestrus cycles where there is a significant period of metoestrus or anoestrus between the receptive periods of oestrus. Males only harrass females in pro-oestrus or oestrus. They leave them alone the rest of the time. So the females get a break.

Human females are treated as potential mating possibilities 24/7 by human males. There is never a time when a woman can simply go about her business without the possibility of harrassment. Must be nice to be a bitch, really.

As interesting as the discussion of horse hymens is, I'd like to go back to this for a moment.

One of the other simple truths of the human condition is that because we mate all the time, not just at fertile periods, and because we don't just copulate with any available target, human females have to have a way of signaling sexual receptivity.

Needless to say, we are also the only animal where words and symbols can be a part of that signaling. Some of it is cultural. On top of that, we have a rather long term courtship compared to other species. A human female might signal availability, in a general sense, through one set of behaviors. There is another set of behaviors that might indicate to a particular male that he is a candidate for mating. Finally, a different set of behaviors signals that yes, she really does want to copulate, the sooner the better.

(Males have similar sets of behavior, although sometimes it seems that a human male indicates his willingness to mate by breathing. However, there is a different set of behaviors that indicates that he is willing to go to some effort to mate with that particular female, which seems to increase her willingness to mate with that particular male.)

Culture indicates what behaviors are associated with a willingness to mate. However, in our culture and an awful lot of other cultures, one very strong signal that a human female is ready to engage in copulation is that she takes off her clothes when a man is looking.

Of course, that can depend on circumstances. If you're in a clothing optional space, taking off your clothes does not mean that. On the other hand, I remember going to clothing optional spaces and, guess what. We were all checking each other out. And while no one was copulating at the swimming hole, there was a very significant sense of sexuality in the air, and I'm confident that after the clothes were put on when the swimming was over, they came back off in a more private setting later in the evening. (Ahh...memories, but I digress.)

The association with nudity and pending intercourse can be suppressed by cultural means, but it hasn't been. The consequence is that if a transwoman is in the locker room, a human female is now being asked to take off her clothes in the presence of a human male. That is normally a strong sexual signal. So, she's doing something associated with sexual signaling, but she is absolutely not wishing it to be a sexual signal, at all. She doesn't even know the male. All she knows about him is that he isn't very attractive, as a male, and is nonconformist in his sexual habits. And we wonder why the women aren't too keen to have this experience?

And that's on top of the fact that, if nothing else, clothing provides a physical and psychological barrier against involuntary intercourse.

Some people say that I have got it backwards when it comes to the association of nudity and intercourse. It is often said that there ought not be any connection between the two, and it is only cultural influence that makes any connection between the two. That could be true, but there are a couple of things to say about that. First, whether we are putting the cart before the horse or not, there's still a strong association between nudity and sex, and the association is deep enough that it isn't going away. Second, and related, while nudity might not be an instinctive sexual signal, I'm extremely confident that there is such a thing as sexual signaling, and in our culture, nudity is huge for that. So, regardless of the origin of the feeling, you're still asking people to do something that is a sexual signal, and then wondering why they might be anxious about it.

Furthermore, I'm not 100% convinced that the association with nudity and sexuality is completely cultural. "Common sense" would tell us that it couldn't be a product of evolutionary instinct, because our hominid ancestors didn't wear clothes. During the period when we evolved into humans, we were naked. However, humans have been wearing clothes for 100,000 years or so. That's 5,000 generations. We have no inbred, automatic way of signaling sexual receptivity the way most mammals do. I just have to wonder if concealment, and then exposure, of genitals is actually an evolved behavior as a means of signaling. Just a thought.

One final thought. We have mentioned "creepy" behavior a lot. What does that mean? I would say that for the most part it consists of people not noticing, or not caring about, the sexual receptivity signals. In other words, a guy is hitting on a girl that is clearly sending out "No" vibes, but the guy either doesn't know, or doesn't care.
 
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The word 'permissive' was once used where now it's 'tolerant', and the former is more apposite. We use a lot of words which have been consciously shoe-horned into our language to muddy thinking on issues like the one here.

So yes, the West has been growing more and more permissive, but for many (such as myself) less and less tolerant.


Well put.

I take it to mean (and maybe I'm incorrect) we let stuff slide but it doesn't mean we like it. And the more we are forced to do this the more stressful it is. People weren't designed to work in little cubicles and all act the same, and more and more that is what a lot of people expect of us.

That's why when someone snaps or goes on a rampage I'm not entirely shocked. When I view people as the somewhat intelligent primates that we are, I'm not surprised by much at all.

Now with this current topic of trans people - after much thought and reading and participating here and elsewhere, I'm just not going to make concessions to every person in the world that demands it. There are records being smashed in women's sports because of this. Women's sports and privacy are threatened. The military (taxpayers) is paying for surgery now. It is completely asinine.

I've followed the thread and it is ridiculous to me. I'm sorry, but I have not been convinced that society should bend over backward to the degrees being discussed here for trans people.

Some people think this is the same thing as gay people wanting their rights. It isn't, not even similar. Gay people just wanted the same rights as everyone else and no more. To be treated the same.

Someone walked into the store I work at last week with a good growth of beard and boobs. I greeted the person like anyone else, didn't stare, didn't think much of it. That is not a common site here, in fact I'd never seen that before. But to each his/her own.

You want to be treated like everyone else? I already do that. You want to be treated special? Nah, I'm tired of that crap. You want me to pay for your surgery? How about you buy me some hair transplants first?

You want to use the women's restroom? Ask women. You want 23 genders? Go to Planet X where that makes sense.

I've read all the discussion and I disagree with most of it.
 
Yes, that's what I said. And it didn't.

If your logic doesn't apply in every situation then you are textbook cherry-picking

Because I thought it was ******* obvious. Men are are more victims of violent crimes than women, but I generally don't fear for my life when I'm at the mall. The point is that there are situations in which you're more vulnerable because you're either isolated or deprived of usual protections.

Indeed. But there are a hell of a lot of these situations and you have decided that the ones that need to be acted on are changing rooms and toilets. I gave you examples of other situations that you don't care about it.

There's also a factor of feeling more vulnerable in those settings. I don't know how reasonable it is, but as usual with humans you can't separate the emotion from the being.

Well you have been arguing that we ignore the subjective and only focus on the objective. Are you saying we should legislate based on 'feelz' now? As long as you agree with them?

Because as I keep telling you and you keep insisting doesn't matter there are going to be people who feel vulnerable changing with gay people or black people. And that feeling is going to be just as real to them as any feeling is to anyone else.

No you're not. You tried to catch me in a contradiction and you failed.

I've showed that you are simply cherry picking a situation because its convenient. That you don't actually care about the objective safety of women and only want to focus on situations which justify your conclusion that trans people need to be excluded. It's obvious what you are doing.

Now who's putting words in the other's mouth? I never said or implied that the situation is grave. I said that it's reasonable for women to ask for protections in settings where they are (or at least feel) more vulnerable.

If there is no significant risk then why should we do anything?

Yeah, like that. But are you going to put cameras in the loo?

We could do. If it helped. We could actually do the work to investigate which situations are risky and what solutions would help. Or we could just not bother and use it as an excuse to segregate trans people from other women. You prefer the latter approach.
 
I think this example highlights my problem with citing third gender or transgender examples from other cultures. Sure, these are women living as men, so in a descriptive sense they are "transgender". But if you look at the actual nature of it, it is very different from transgender people as we define them.

In the cases I've seen, they occur in traditional societies with strictly enforced gender roles. In this case, these are women trying to escape their oppression. In other cases, it is society trying to fit a role for effeminate homosexual men, or in some cases enforce one like for the bacha bazi. They are not examples of societies that we would like to emulate, or lives we would like to live.

They aren't embracing their authentic selves and acting on an innate gender identity. They are oppressive societies' attempts at maintaining control over non-conformance.

While we may not wish to emulate these examples (did anyone suggest we should?) I think these alternative examples do demonstrate that there are other ways of thinking about sex and gender that don't fit within the narrow confines of 'traditional' modern Western cultural mores.

You will see the idea put forward that ' this is how it is, this is how it has always been and this is how it should stay' as if somehow people are talking about some objective truth rather than a cultural norm.
 
If your logic doesn't apply in every situation then you are textbook cherry-picking

Oh, really? So every time someone says that something depends on context they are cherry-picking? Stop trying to find holes in the argument, and instead strive to understand said argument. By this point you know that I was discussing situations where women feel more vulnerable to harrassment and assault, but you keep ignoring that. Why?

Indeed. But there are a hell of a lot of these situations and you have decided that the ones that need to be acted on are changing rooms and toilets.

Because those are the ones we're discussing.

For ****'s sake.

Well you have been arguing that we ignore the subjective and only focus on the objective.

No.

Because as I keep telling you and you keep insisting doesn't matter there are going to be people who feel vulnerable changing with gay people or black people.

Already addressed. Could you keep your eyes on the ball, please? We're not talking about race. Take it to another thread.

I've showed that you are simply cherry picking a situation because its convenient.

You've shown nothing of the sort. Making a claim is not the same thing as demonstrating that claim, something you keep being confused by. In fact, you've agreed that vulnerability was part of the discussion. Why do you keep changing your argument?

If there is no significant risk then why should we do anything?

Hey, could you address what you're responding to rather than trying to dodge it?

We could do. If it helped. We could actually do the work to investigate which situations are risky and what solutions would help. Or we could just not bother and use it as an excuse to segregate trans people from other women. You prefer the latter approach.

Stop tyring to determine my own positions for me, and rely on what I actually say instead. I don't know why you're flirting with dishonesty so regularily. It doesn't help your case.
 
Is it actually a mystery to you why being naked might make a person more vulnerable to sexual assault or harassment? These things are not unrelated.

I guess it's kind of an updated Erica Jong thing, the zipless rape.
 
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