Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

[Strawberry]

I can see why it suits abusive men to push the notion that transwomen are women and should have an absolute right to enter female only spaces like changing rooms, domestic violence shelters, female sports etc. As long as there are male bodies in such places women are less likely to feel safe there, and so less likely to pursue any interests outside the home and less likely to leave an abusive marriage.

That doesn't mean, of course, that all men pushing this agenda are wife beaters, there are other reasons for it. For example, there are men who regard themselves as straight but get turned on by porn featuring transwomen. They don't like what that says about their sexuality, hence the insistence that transwomen are really really real women.

 

[mgidm86]

Then there's traumatic insemination

I'll shield the description for those who may be eating when they read this.

where the male stabs another through their abdomen and injects their ejaculatory fluids directly into the body cavity.

In many cases, they don't even bother to distinguish the sex of their...errr...partner.

"It happens in nature, so it's all fine and dandy."

Not fine and dandy, just something people need to keep in mind (that humans are not perfect animals).

My main point is that humans are fallible and our society seems to forget this more and more as time goes on. People are pushing too hard. That's why I mentioned the Gillette commercial (or was that in another thread?).

You can't say the wrong word, wear the wrong hat, believe in something controversial or run a stop sign without major consequences anymore.

Many people believe society is becoming more tolerant. I think the opposite is true and that is concerning to me.

 

[Ziggurat]

Is your concern about women and men being placed together in situations where a woman is vulnerable to sexual assault or is it about women and men being segregated in places where there may be nudity?

Because you seem to be arguing for the latter by using arguments for the former.

Is it actually a mystery to you why being naked might make a person more vulnerable to sexual assault or harassment? These things are not unrelated.

 

[p0lka]

Someone said something on twitter which I thought was relevant.


That's why I and some of the other women in this thread have been pointing out what are indeed the worst case scenarios. Because these are the contingencies we need to take into account when we plan for our safety. We've had some people objecting to this, and saying "you're accusing all transwomen of [insert particular problematic behaviour]" and of course we're not. We're pointing out that this is the behaviour we need to legislate for. We have no way of telling which males are harmless (and merely making us feel acutely uncomfortable) and which are dangerous, until something happens. We have to describe that behaviour. Others have said, but if this behaviour is very rare then why are you concerned? But it isn't very rare. We know that sexual harassment from males is common, and we know that a trans identity doesn't make a man any less likely to behave like that. We're also conscious that if the trans advocates get their way then any man at all can enter an intimate female space and we have no way to object to his presence per se. Indeed, we are seeing that many authorities and organisations are getting round this difficulty by simply opening up every intimate female-only space to both sexes without any stipulation about trans identity at all. This is something that we know is dangerous for us.

Yes we are describing the more extreme examples of problematic behaviour. Because that is the behaviour we need to be able to protect ourselves against.

I have failed to find any data regarding the ratio of sex offenders v population, it doesn't seem to be out there for me to find unfortunately.
But I would hate to think that some people are flinching at shadows, so it is worth finding out how likely it is to meet a sex offender in an average unisex/problem space, before assuming everyone is a danger.

 

[p0lka]

Does the animal rape topic fit into this thread or is it more like a derail that deserves its own thread?

Are we limiting it to mammals? Because ducks are notorious for rape and even to the extent that hens can be killed and the drake proceeds to have intercourse with the dead body. Drakes that simply find dead hens will sometimes have sex with the dead body. This is not a constant universal but is still regarded as common.

They even pin the female ducks down by the back of the head.

As one old woman said to me as we were by a stream "it's not very romantic, is it?"

I suspect the contributors to the animal rape topic conveniently ducked the whole duck scenario.

 

[p0lka]

I'm finding citations for hymens in chimpanzees, elephants and manatees. There could be others beyond these and those also mentioned in TomB's post.

That is strange,
it's almost like some people are ignoring everything that goes against their opinion and cherrypicking just to feel special.

 

[William Parcher]

Animal coercive sex

It has been noted that behavior resembling rape in humans is observed in the animal kingdom, including ducks and geese, bottlenose dolphins, and chimpanzees. Indeed, in orangutans, close human relatives, copulations of this nature may account for up to half of all observed matings. Such behaviors, referred to as 'forced copulations', involve an animal being approached and sexually penetrated as it struggles or attempts to escape.

These observations of forced sex among animals are not controversial. What is controversial is the interpretation of these observations and the extension of theories based on them to humans. "Thornhill introduces this theory by describing the sexual behavior of scorpionflies. In which the male may gain sex from the female either by presenting a gift of food during courtship or without a nuptial offering, in which case force is necessary to restrain her."...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociobiological_theories_of_rape

 

[p0lka]

Animal coercive sex



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociobiological_theories_of_rape

hmm, maybe rolfe has a point

 

[Darat]

Not fine and dandy, just something people need to keep in mind (that humans are not perfect animals).



My main point is that humans are fallible and our society seems to forget this more and more as time goes on. People are pushing too hard. That's why I mentioned the Gillette commercial (or was that in another thread?).



You can't say the wrong word, wear the wrong hat, believe in something controversial or run a stop sign without major consequences anymore.



Many people believe society is becoming more tolerant. I think the opposite is true and that is concerning to me.

And in my society two thirty year olds having sex in private cant be thrown into jail. A women cant be sacked because she has got married. Society has become amazingly more tolerant over my lifetime.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

And in my society two thirty year olds having sex in private cant be thrown into jail. A women cant be sacked because she has got married. Society has become amazingly more tolerant over my lifetime.

Yeah, what we're "less tolerant" of is harmful behaviors.

Let me get out my world's smallest violin for this...

 

[Belz...]

I would be interested to know how many people in a population commit sexual crimes?

Had a quick look but couldn't find anything.

The reason why I'm interested is,
if this 2% women v 98% men pervert thing is correct, but for instance there's only 0.1% of the population that commit sexual crimes in the first place, then there would be little reason for anyone to be worried about bumping into perverts at your local amenities anyway?

I think the main thrust of the argument is that it would incentivise those with those tendencies to act, since they can easily get out of the situation scott-free.

 

[Belz...]

Men have dicks and are slaves to them to varying degrees at different times.

Nnno. In the end you're entirely in control of what you do.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Is a butch lesbian not a woman? Why to transgender people medically transition if gender is just social presentation? Why are we substituting gender for sex in instances like locker rooms and sport? Where is the self identity in this definition?

I don't think this definition fits.

That depends on the nature of ones specific dysphoria. And a butch woman is a woman because she says she is.

 

[Belz...]

Well before we put words in mouth i intimated your logic should apply to every public setting.

Yes, that's what I said. And it didn't.

1. That male-bodied people are stronger than female-bodied ones. Without going in to specifics on individuals vs groups then we can say OK, in general.

2. That male-bodied people have penises. Again, we can grant you this.

Notice though than both of these 2 things apply in EVERY single situation. Not just in bathrooms or changing rooms.

So if the concern is sexual assault as you argued then the risk is there in every single situation. not just in bathrooms or changing rooms. Then you added the element of vulnerability.

Because I thought it was ******* obvious. Men are are more victims of violent crimes than women, but I generally don't fear for my life when I'm at the mall. The point is that there are situations in which you're more vulnerable because you're either isolated or deprived of usual protections.

Ok fair point. Someone is unlikely to rape someone in the middle of a busy shopping centre in the middle of the day. And I would argue it's equally unlikely to happen in a busy shopping centre bathroom in the middle of the day too.

There's also a factor of feeling more vulnerable in those settings. I don't know how reasonable it is, but as usual with humans you can't separate the emotion from the being.

But that still leaves a hell of a lot of 'vulnerable' situations. So what I am asking for in your argument is consistency.

No you're not. You tried to catch me in a contradiction and you failed.

It also occurs to me that if the situation is as grave as you say and the risk is significant then we need to do a better job of making women less vulnerable in these spaces beyond a little sign on a door.

Now who's putting words in the other's mouth? I never said or implied that the situation is grave. I said that it's reasonable for women to ask for protections in settings where they are (or at least feel) more vulnerable.

Proper security, cameras, lighting, alarms, whatever might actually make all sorts of spaces safer - including empty trains, late night buses, dark streets or whatever.

Yeah, like that. But are you going to put cameras in the loo?

 

[Strawberry]

That depends on the nature of ones specific dysphoria. And a butch woman is a woman because she says she is.

A butch woman is a woman because she's female, regardless of what she says.

 

[theprestige]

And a butch woman is a woman because she says she is.

I don't think social constructs work that way. I'm pretty sure a butch woman is a woman because there's broad agreement about the underlying biological facts and the related position on the spectrum of gender roles in society of her womanhood.

---

Out of curiosity, does your idea also apply to effeminate men? Is an effeminate man a woman because she says she is, do you think?

 

[Belz...]

I don't think social constructs work that way. I'm pretty sure a butch woman is a woman because there's broad agreement about the underlying biological facts and the related position on the spectrum of gender roles in society of her womanhood.

How is the italicised part relevant in any way? Would someone not be a woman if she didn't act like one?

 

[theprestige]

How is the italicised part relevant in any way? Would someone not be a woman if she didn't act like one?

It depends on how she acted and how society felt about how she acted. For example, in some parts of Albania, gender roles are very rigidly defined, and in some cases a woman will act as a man and be treated as a man purely because of how she acts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_sworn_virgins

 

[Belz...]

It depends on how she acted and how society felt about how she acted.

Back up. How would that change anything about her being a woman?

 

[Meadmaker]

And... we're back to definitions.(not that we ever really left)