Does the IDF target civilians?

Did Orwell say something useful? I missed it... (I really enjoy 'ignore', such a clever feature).

Israelis are attacked by rockets, mortars, bazookas, machine-gun fire, anti-tank rounds, TNT, suicide bombers, whatever.... Attacks are deliberately directed against innocent civilians.
IDF responds by precision targeting and carefully avoiding civilian casualties.

This thread is about INTENTIONAL and DIRECTED targeting by the IDF of non-combatants anywhere within shouting distance of the entire conflict (from Damascus to Natanz to Gaza to Ramallah).

Now, if somebody here can produce an example of the IDF going forward as a matter of doctrine to kill civilians, then such information would likely be of some importance to the discussion.
 
webfusion said:
Israelis are attacked by rockets, mortars, bazookas, machine-gun fire, anti-tank rounds, TNT, suicide bombers, whatever.... Attacks are deliberately directed against innocent civilians.
IDF responds by precision targeting and carefully avoiding civilian casualties.
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Makes you wonder, then, how it is that the IDF winds up killing more civilians than the Palestinians do.
 
Not a surprise to me.

I don't wonder at all ----
23pales.jpg

GAZA CITY: Shouting revenge, an estimated 100,000 Palestinians took to the streets of Gaza City to march in a funeral procession for a Hamas top leader Ismael Abu Shaneb. As his green Hamas flag-shrouded body was carried aloft, a loudspeaker blared: “Abu Shaneb, rest in peace. Our armies will go forward. We are the men of the dark night.”
Ismael Abu Shaneb was killed along with two of his bodyguards on Thursday when Israeli helicopters fired missiles into their car in Gaza City.

Dark nights indeed.
Show your proof, Cleon.
We are waiting...
 
webfusion said:
From News Reports yesterday: "The Hezbollah shelling continued throughout the afternoon, as a large number of Katyusha rockets and mortar shells fell in Kiryat Shmona, Metulla and other northern Israel communities."

Are you trying to say that this attack on Israeli towns was not terrorism? Just curious, TMY, where you are coming from on this.
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No. Of course its terrorism. Just as its a terror attack to blow up some checkpoint. But technically its not, since its a military checkpoint. Hell guess you can argue the plane crashing into the Pentagon was not a terror attack since it was a direct assault on a military institution. Do you think the people on that plane were just in the wrong place at the wrong time?
 
Do us all a favor, TMY, and stop posting absurd questions which show even you have no idea what you mean by them.
 
webfusion said:
Do us all a favor, TMY, and stop posting absurd questions which show even you have no idea what you mean by them.
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Ummmmm...........OK, but only if you stop excusing bad behavior by pointing out worse behavior by others.

Theres a fine line between reckless and deliberate. Thats all Im sayin.
 
WildCat said:
Now I see your confusion. You are claiming unintentional targeting of civilians, that's a non-sequitor isn't it? Unless, of course, you're re-defining what "target" means to suit your agenda. Much like the Kansas school board re-defining science to include the supernatural.
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Deliberate: done with or marked by full consciousness of the nature and effects; intentional.

It is possible to target civilians without doing so deliberately, like when a IDF soldier shoots at a kid who just threw a rock at him.

Deliberately so as in planned, like when the IDF levels homes with bulldozers. Nice try tough.
 
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http://qumsiyeh.org/targetingcivilians/
In an interview with Ha'aretz reporter Amira Hass, an Israeli sniper described the commands he receives from his superiors: "Twelve and up, you're allowed to shoot. That's what they tell us," he said. "So," responded the reporter "according to the IDF, (the appropriate minimum age group at which to shoot) is 12?" the soldier replied, "According to what the IDF says to its soldiers. I don't know if this is what the IDF says to the media."
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Moshe Nissim, who operated a bulldozer for 75 straight hours in Jenin was quoted in Yediot Ahoronot:
"No one refused an order to take down a house. When they told me to destroy a house I exploited that in order to destroy a few more homes. On the loudspeaker (the Palestinian residents) were warned to get out before I came in. But I didn't give a chance to anyone. I didn't wait. I'm sure that people died inside of those houses. From my perspective we left them a football field, they should play there. The 100x100 was our present to the camp. Jenin will not return to be what it was." (Yedioth Ahronot, Friday 31 May 2002, translated by Alternative Information Center).
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New York Times journalist Chris Hedges stated: " And it was--I mean, I've seen kids shot in Sarajevo. I mean, snipers would shoot kids in Sarajevo. I've seen death squads kill families in Algeria or El Salvador. But I'd never seen soldiers bait or taunt kids like this and then shoot them for sport. It was--I just--even now, I find it almost inconceivable. And I went back every day, and every day it was the same."
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Full transcript: http://64.226.129.19/pmw/manager/features/display_message.asp?mid=487
 
http://hrw.org/press/2002/10/gaza1024.htm
At least 20 people were injured, nine of them children, when the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) prevented residents from evacuating their home while the IDF was demolishing the next-door house in Gaza, Human Rights Watch said in reporting eyewitness testimony today. The IDF actions violated provisions in international law against collective punishment, the destruction of private property, and the use of force against civilians, Human Rights Watch said.
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Bad behavior?

OK, but only if you stop excusing bad behavior by pointing out worse behavior by others.
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I am not excusing IDF 'bad behavior', no sir, I am saying, in plain English, there is no targeted killing of civilians by the IDF and great pains are taken to avoid civilian deaths. I know of no other Armed Force anywhere that trains and deploys its troops in the manner of professionalism and responsibility as the IDF.

The 'bad behavior of others" (as you coyly put it) is actually beyond reprehensible and outside the bounds of civilized behavior as it is commonly defined on this planet. You just mentioned the actions of an Islamic Suicide group acting in unison on 9-11-01, and asked if it could perhaps be argued because the Pentagon got hit that it wasn't really terrorism, but a legitimate military operation? Isn't that what you asked? I cannot for the life of me see how you can use that example in the same thread with a discussion about the way the IDF acts. That's just unacceptable.

And a word for Orwell, who I just happened to notice (while I wasn't logged-in and the ignore was disabled) is now offering IDF bulldozing of vacant homes as evidence of how the Israeli Army targets civilians.
The IDF plans to avoid any casualties in those operations. Jenin was a war zone, 100% free-fire zone (and the "massacre" reported there was not as some described in their exaggerations, like Amira Hass, a Palestinian propogandist par-excellance). Our discussion here is about targeted KILLINGS of Palestinian civilians by the IDF, as a rule from the top down, as a matter of policy, as a matter of training, as a matter of intent, as a matter of purposeful action to go out together as a combat unit and intentionally murder innocent non-violent, non-rioting, unarmed, sitting around doing nothing, Palestinians.

That's what we are truly discussing, as far as I know, Orwell.
You don't want to, fine, continue being ignored by me, as you wish.
 
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Orwell said:
I know perfectly well that Palestinian terrorists target Israeli civilians. Just read the Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch reposts I put up. Now, does the IDF target Palestinian civilians? I know they do. Amnesty International says so, Human Rights Watch says so, other humanitarian organisations say so, my local newspaper says so...

My point all along is that both sides are guilty of a lot of crap. Both sides, Mycroft. Your inability to take a balanced approach to t
his is what has caused me to repeatedly call you a partisan hack.
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And you are which kind of hack?

The kind that takes whatever crap is dished out without thought, or the kind with a deliberate agenda.

I've watched this sorry story for longer than you have and I know what so called "reports" to take at face value and which ones to piss on.

I hate to repeat the obvious, yet again, and again, but if you think what you stated is an accurate representation of anything you must truly be a young earth creationist.

You changed your sig from juvenile to pretend intellectual. Do you not realize it takes more to grow up?

Here we go sweety:covereyes
 
webfusion said:
I am not excusing IDF 'bad behavior', no sir, I am saying, in plain English, there is no targeted killing of civilians by the IDF and great pains are taken to avoid civilian deaths. I know of no other Armed Force anywhere that trains and deploys its troops in the manner of professionalism and responsibility as the IDF.

The 'bad behavior of others" (as you coyly put it) is actually beyond reprehensible and outside the bounds of civilized behavior as it is commonly defined on this planet. You just mentioned the actions of an Islamic Suicide group acting in unison on 9-11-01, and asked if it could perhaps be argued because the Pentagon got hit that it wasn't really terrorism, but a legitimate military operation? Isn't that what you asked? I cannot for the life of me see how you can use that example in the same thread with a discussion about the way the IDF acts. That's just unacceptable.

And a word for Orwell, who I just happened to notice (while I wasn't logged-in and the ignore was disabled) is now offering IDF bulldozing of vacant homes as evidence of how the Israeli Army targets civilians.
The IDF plans to avoid any casualties in those operations, Orwell, wouldn't you agree? Our discussion here is about targeted KILLINGS of Palestinian civilians by the IDF, as a rule from the top down, as a matter of policy, as a matter of training, as a matter of intent, as a matter of purposeful action to go out together as a combat unit and intentionally murder innocent non-violent, non-rioting, unarmed, sitting around doing nothing, Palestinians.

That's what we are truly discussing, as far as I know, Orwell.
You don't want to, fine, continue being ignored by me, as you wish.
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This one has to be preserved for posterity.
 
Orwell said:
It is possible to target civilians without doing so deliberately, like when a IDF soldier shoots at a kid who just threw a rock at him.
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Can you cite an instance of this happening?
 
http://www.hrw.org/wr2k2/mena.html
In an eighty-two page report, Center of the Storm: A Case Study of Human Rights Abuses in Hebron District, published in April, Human Rights Watch documented excessive use of force and unlawful killings by Israeli forces, Palestinian targeting of Israeli civilians, and a systematic policy of Israeli blockades and curfews that amounted to collective punishment. The report also brought to light a disturbing pattern of violence committed by Israeli settlers against Palestinian civilians in and around Hebron, often committed with the knowledge of Israeli Defense Force (IDF) soldiers in the area. We urged the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority to take immediate steps to stop abuses by the forces under their control, and called for an independent, international monitoring presence in the West Bank and Gaza Strip to monitor and report on Israeli and Palestinian abuses.
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webfusion said:
I am not excusing IDF 'bad behavior', no sir, I am saying, in plain English, there is no targeted killing of civilians by the IDF and great pains are taken to avoid civilian deaths. I know of no other Armed Force anywhere that trains and deploys its troops in the manner of professionalism and responsibility as the IDF.
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As I have said before, you know the rules, and I believe you would follow them. However, when no-one is held responsible for the death of incidents like the young girl who was not just shot, but had a whole magazine emptied into her, in Gaza, then the IDF should be held responsible. As an organisation, it is not enforcing it's own rules of conduct.
 
Hass

"So," responded the reporter "according to the IDF, (the appropriate minimum age group at which to shoot) is 12?" the soldier replied, "According to what the IDF says to its soldiers.

In the experience of the IDF, a 12-year-old is perfectly capable of joining in armed combat. (see: RPG kids, Lebanon War) In fact, just in the past few weeks, the IDF confronted some 12-year-old kids and SHOT THEM, even though they were holding toy weapons.

Tragic? Yep.
IDF targeting 12-year olds? Yep.
Armed 12-year olds.
 
Israeli soldiers tell of indiscriminate killings by army and a culture of impunity

"The reason why I am telling you this is that I want the army to think about what they are asking us to do, shooting unarmed people. I don't think it's legal."

Assaf is not alone. In recent months dozens of soldiers, including the son of an an Israeli general, all recently discharged, have come forward to share their stories of how they were ordered in briefings to shoot to kill unarmed people without fear of reprimand.
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