Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

[Meadmaker]

As interesting as loo selfies may be, I want to call attention to Darat's post of yesterday. I thought it was pretty good. Hard liners on either side of the issue wouldn't be happy with it, but I think reasonable people could accept it. A lot of people call me a transphobe, but I don't think anyone would say that about Darat is a transphobe. Despite that, we share pretty much the same bottom line approach about what ought to be done.

 

[kellyb]

It was merely the latest in two threads worth of examples. The straw and the camel. But I agree I wasted my effort: this thread cannot be salvaged for rationality because basic errors in thinking are tolerated as par for course when they come from one side of the argument.

It takes a second sometimes for people to really grasp that they are biased. It's really hard to see your own bias, and it's...uncomfortable to readjust your thinking in light of this new info.

 

[theprestige]

As interesting as loo selfies may be, I want to call attention to Darat's post of yesterday. I thought it was pretty good. Hard liners on either side of the issue wouldn't be happy with it, but I think reasonable people could accept it. A lot of people call me a transphobe, but I don't think anyone would say that about Darat is a transphobe. Despite that, we share pretty much the same bottom line approach about what ought to be done.

Would you mind linking to the post in question?

 

[kellyb]

As interesting as loo selfies may be, I want to call attention to Darat's post of yesterday. I thought it was pretty good. Hard liners on either side of the issue wouldn't be happy with it, but I think reasonable people could accept it. A lot of people call me a transphobe, but I don't think anyone would say that about Darat is a transphobe. Despite that, we share pretty much the same bottom line approach about what ought to be done.

This one?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12896335&postcount=1658

It sounds right to me, too. I don't think anyone would call me a transphobe, either. Some people might call me a "bad LGBTQ advocate", and others "not a real feminist", but I don't care about that at all.

 

[TragicMonkey]

As interesting as loo selfies may be, I want to call attention to Darat's post of yesterday. I thought it was pretty good. Hard liners on either side of the issue wouldn't be happy with it, but I think reasonable people could accept it. A lot of people call me a transphobe, but I don't think anyone would say that about Darat is a transphobe. Despite that, we share pretty much the same bottom line approach about what ought to be done.

Agreed. And to build on what theprestige was suggesting, perhaps the degree of accommodation to transpersons should scale with the degree of action they've taken to transition. Simply declare yourself the other sex? Okay, we'll address you by those pronouns but you don't get to use that bathroom. Have the surgery or hormones to change your body? Okay, that's commitment, welcome to the bathroom. Sports...sports set their own rules and circumstances, and while it sometimes sucks to be excluded nobody's actually owed a sporting career.

 

[kellyb]

Would you mind linking to the post in question?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12896335&postcount=1658

 

[kellyb]

Agreed. And to build on what theprestige was suggesting, perhaps the degree of accommodation to transpersons should scale with the degree of action they've taken to transition. Simply declare yourself the other sex? Okay, we'll address you by those pronouns but you don't get to use that bathroom. Have the surgery or hormones to change your body? Okay, that's commitment, welcome to the bathroom. Sports...sports set their own rules and circumstances, and while it sometimes sucks to be excluded nobody's actually owed a sporting career.

That sounds right to me, too.

eta:

Sports...sports set their own rules and circumstances, and while it sometimes sucks to be excluded nobody's actually owed a sporting career.

OTHER employment discrimination needs to be addressed with equal rights laws, though.

 

[Meadmaker]

I know you don't want to discuss definitions but I think definitions are what this is all about.

I have great sympathy for trans people, I can understand them just wanting to be themselves and they find it terrible when they can't be. I.e. a trans man being told they have to use the women's toilets.

I don't support the idea that one should be officially able to change their gender just by saying so, it isn't like changing a name.

If someone has as the case is currently in the UK been medically diagnosed and lived as their preferred gender for 2 years I think they should be able to have their gender officially changed.

The issue as I see it is then becomes a case of "what does it mean to officially change your gender?". And that is where various "rights" come into conflicts and it seems there is no way to make everyone 100% happy so whatever we come up with will result in no one being happy, the fine art of compromise.

Straight forward toilets? Your official gender should determine which you can use. Yes that will make some people uncomfortable but that's a "tough" from me. Going to the loo is just a bodily function.

Changing rooms such as in a sports venue? I would say you use the one you are most physically like, so if you are a trans man and still have female looking genitals you use the womens changing room, and vice a versa. Yes this make some people uncomfortable and others unhappy but that's another "tough" from me.

Sports? It is part of the entertainment industry so I say it is up to the private organisations involved to make their own calls. If some entertainments stop being fun for the participants or audiences they'll fade away and I am sure someone will innovate with something that captures people's attention.

Medically? That is based on your sex.

Services? Depends on what they are. So no no one should be forced to wax male genitals because they offer waxing of female genitals. But if it is say for getting your haircut then a trans person should be treated as per their official gender.

This is the post I referred to earlier.

 

[TragicMonkey]

OTHER employment discrimination needs to be addressed with equal rights laws, though.

Definitely. A lot of places you can still get fired for being Regular Gay, which seems crazy considering the spectrum of what's possible now. Regular Gay seems kind of dull by comparison!

 

[Lithrael]

Agreed as well. And anyways, some of Meadmaker’s and Joe’s posts might be mistaken for transphobic but Meadmaker’s clearly just thinking things through like anybody, and Joe is obviously some type of gender-luddite who actually treats everyone equitably in real life, so I might not like what he says but there’s no rule that people gotta say what I like.

Like, his entire brand of bile is just like banging on the table in front of a plate of kraft dinner going “they can’t make me call that mac and cheese because it isn’t mac and cheese!” while not actually objecting to kraft dinner at all.

 

[Rolfe]

I've had plenty of female friends send me photos in front of loo mirrors. It is unremarkably common for both sexes. I'd say in my circle of friends it is pretty much only the ladies that do this. Out at the theatre for example they'll post a funny photo with something like "musical is terrible, loading up with double double g&t at intervale" and the photo will show the mirror with several of them holding a couple of glasses each.

Yes, Matthew posted a link to a Guardian article about it. I hadn't been aware of it, but I can see it is a thing in certain circles.

 

[theprestige]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12896335&postcount=1658

This is the post I referred to earlier.

Thanks!

Agreed. And to build on what theprestige was suggesting, perhaps the degree of accommodation to transpersons should scale with the degree of action they've taken to transition. Simply declare yourself the other sex? Okay, we'll address you by those pronouns but you don't get to use that bathroom. Have the surgery or hormones to change your body? Okay, that's commitment, welcome to the bathroom. Sports...sports set their own rules and circumstances, and while it sometimes sucks to be excluded nobody's actually owed a sporting career.

This seems about as good as reasonably possible, but it does have some trade-offs that should probably be recognized.

For these trade-offs, I assume that transgender people are dealing with a legitimate and stressful personal issue. I also assume that one thing that helps them is to try to accommodate their gender self-construct as much as (reasonably) possible.

We have to draw the line somewhere, and this seems to be more or less the right place to draw it. But consider:

Requiring proof of medical transition at any stage is going to make acceptance at that stage a regressive policy. Only people who can afford the procedure can enjoy the entitlement. This is going to be hard on transpeople who can't afford the procedure.

Requiring proof of transition to enter a women's space is also going to be problematic. It upends some existing legal and social norms. If a woman in the locker room demands to see another woman's transition paperwork, is that legitimate? Is the transwoman required to produce it on demand?

 

[TragicMonkey]

I think we'd have to simply rely upon the honor system. Papers and proof seems uncivil as well as impractical.

 

[d4m10n]

Ok, Boomer!

Translation: I have no counterargument, I've momentarily forgotten what sort of forum this is, and I’ve been culturally conditioned to believe casual ageism is hip and cool. [emoji14]

I think we'd have to simply rely upon the honor system. Papers and proof seems uncivil as well as impractical.

Is this not roughly how it works now? We rarely confront people in bathrooms and locker rooms, we’re mostly concerned with getting **** done.

OTHER employment discrimination needs to be addressed with equal rights laws, though.

I think we can make a reasonable case that sex-segregated sport is just a subset of the more general BFOQ^WP exception.

 

[Earthborn]

I don't support the idea that one should be officially able to change their gender just by saying so, it isn't like changing a name.

What is the purpose of officially registered gender?

Straight forward toilets? Your official gender should determine which you can use.

That will lead to many people -- including many cisgendered people -- being forced to show their ID just for going to the loo; especially women who a look a bit mannish. It can also lead to problems with tourists from other countries who may be registered as a third gender, or may not have any registered gender at all, as many countries are seriously considering doing away with gender registration entirely.

Changing rooms such as in a sports venue? I would say you use the one you are most physically like, so if you are a trans man and still have female looking genitals you use the womens changing room, and vice a versa.

I think you define "most physically like" rather narrowly as what is between one's legs. It would mean that some would have to use a changing room in which they would look decidedly out of place just for having parts they are likely going to hide anyway.

 

[theprestige]

I think we'd have to simply rely upon the honor system. Papers and proof seems uncivil as well as impractical.

Yeah, that's kind of how it seems to me, too.

But that brings us back to the central concern: Removing the social and legal obstacles that make it difficult for harassing and abusive men to gain access to women's spaces. A pervert in a dress can get a lot of ogling done before someone gets up enough courage to challenge their standing.

On the other hand, I assume it's roughly the same problem women currently have with the occasional female pervert in the women's locker room.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Yeah, that's kind of how it seems to me, too.

But that brings us back to the central concern: Removing the social and legal obstacles that make it difficult for harassing and abusive men to gain access to women's spaces. A pervert in a dress can get a lot of ogling done before someone gets up enough courage to challenge their standing.

I don't consider that a "central concern". I think it's paranoid hysteria. The solution is for those suffering from that to get over it, avoid public bathrooms, or instigate a squadron of guards to physically examine each prospective toilet-user to see if they meet stringent requirements for being officially classed as Sufficently Female Women. I'm sure the taxpayers would be willing to fund such a guard in order to protect their precious used tampons from being stolen!

 

[Darat]

Yes, Matthew posted a link to a Guardian article about it. I hadn't been aware of it, but I can see it is a thing in certain circles.

"certain circles" meaning pretty much most people who take selfies.....

 

[kellyb]

Yeah, that's kind of how it seems to me, too.

But that brings us back to the central concern: Removing the social and legal obstacles that make it difficult for harassing and abusive men to gain access to women's spaces. A pervert in a dress can get a lot of ogling done before someone gets up enough courage to challenge their standing.

On the other hand, I assume it's roughly the same problem women currently have with the occasional female pervert in the women's locker room.

Darat had said:

Straight forward toilets? Your official gender should determine which you can use. Yes that will make some people uncomfortable but that's a "tough" from me. Going to the loo is just a bodily function.

Changing rooms such as in a sports venue? I would say you use the one you are most physically like, so if you are a trans man and still have female looking genitals you use the womens changing room, and vice a versa. Yes this make some people uncomfortable and others unhappy but that's another "tough" from me.

There's no potential "ogling done" in a toilet stall.

 

[Rolfe]

"certain circles" meaning pretty much most people who take selfies.....

The young of today...