Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

[kellyb]

Bearing in mind it's possible that no single poster can speak for an entire country, much less an entire sex.

Yeah, I put "seems" in italics to try to emphasize that it just looks that way from over here.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I'm not upset. It's just interesting to me how different the cultures seem to be between Scotland and the US.

Please don't assume any 1 person speaks for an entire country or culture.

One observation I would make, and it is only anecdote, is that there seems to be a significant generational gap on this topic. Most people I know under 30 are totally fine with trans people and most avid complainers tend to be ...ahem...more mature ladies.

 

[kellyb]

Please don't assume any 1 person speaks for an entire country or culture.

One observation I would make, and it is only anecdote, is that there seems to be a significant generational gap on this topic. Most people I know under 30 are totally fine with trans people and most avid complainers tend to be ...ahem...more mature ladies.

Age gap + culture difference (maybe) would explain it. Either way, the UK's policies on this stuff are for the UK people to figure out.

 

[Rolfe]

And schoolgirls in tears because they're being forced to get changed in the presence of a naked boy, or because they've lost the college athletics scholarship they'd trained for years for to a boy who decided three months ago that he felt like a girl, are obviously a figment of everybody's imagination.

 

[kellyb]

And schoolgirls in tears because they're being forced to get changed in the presence of a naked boy, or because they've lost the college athletics scholarship they'd trained for years for to a boy who decided three months ago that he felt like a girl, are obviously a figment of everybody's imagination.

No.

 

[Belz...]

And I think that as a society, where possible, where the overall tradeoffs are better, we should try to make these things suck a little less (and in fact we do).

Indeed. Now, would this make things better overall, or not? Bear in mind what Rolfe has said.

That is, indeed, the question.

Do you have an answer? I sure don't.

I'd already addressed that claim in the sentences immediately following the one you quoted.

Where? That was the entiret of your post.

The terminology debate has been done to death. I don't see any point in repeating it over and over again.

Well what's your position on said debate?

Do you want to take a stab at answering my questions?

They weren't directed at me. Why are you so intent on seeing me answer them?

 

[Belz...]

I'm not really sure what your question is. Can we know objective reality about some things? Of course. Can we know objective reality about this thing? Certainly not now.

Seems to me you know exactly what my question is, since you answered precisely the question. Thank you.

Ultimately you are going to have to rely on the reports of the person being studied, surely?

Depends on the situation. In this specific case, I don't know. The issue is that if you take people simply at their word you complete lose the ability to question anyone on their claim e.g. if a man is in the women's restroom he can't be asked to leave for any reason. All the restrooms automatically become unisex. I've been told that a whole lot of women don't want that.

Currently that would appear to be the case.

Thank you.

If you are aware of a current method to determine things more objectively, I am all ears.

I do not.

 

[Belz...]

Yes, surely the aim should be to treat as many people as possible as they wish to be provided it doesn't cause harm to anyone else?

Sure, but if we're at the point where we weigh the needs of the many against the needs of the few, and we can't find a solution, the many would win.

A reminder: I'm not concerned about trans people in female restrooms. I'm concerned about cis-people pretending to be trans.

This is a really troublesome response for me, it suggests you seem to think that people somehow need to 'deserve' to be treated as they wish.

It's just weird and bothering on a number of levels.

I don't think anyone deserves to be treated as they wish.

 

[Belz...]

Then cis-women aren't women either according to this weird and wonderful logic?

First of all, it's neither weird nor wonderful. It's in the definition of the terms. Second of all, no, cis-women ARE women, because the terms are synonyms. You do understand what the prefix "cis" means, right? But it wouldn't even exist if the term "trans-woman" hadn't been coined specifically to describe those who didn't fit the definition of "woman" to begin with.

And a blackbird isn't a bird.

Now that's pretty silly. "Blackbird" isn't a word for a different kind of beast. It's a subset.

Honestly? You are going with this argument?

Right back at ya. Don't pretent to not understand language please. It's beneath you.

 

[theprestige]

Indeed. Now, would this make things better overall, or not? Bear in mind what Rolfe has said.

How would what make things better?

Do you have an answer? I sure don't.

I don't think anybody does, really. Those that claim to have an answer don't seem to be willing or able to address the tradeoffs, which is kinda the same as not having an answer, in my opinion.

Where? That was the entiret of your post.

Nope. The post was actually three paragraphs of discussion, including discussion that addressed the point you raised. That one snippet you replied to was far from the entirety of it.

Well what's your position on said debate?

The debate about whether transwomen are women? My position is that it's complicated, and that there are conflicting social goods at issue. I've gone into more detail in this thread previously. I'm not going to re-hash it here.

They weren't directed at me. Why are you so intent on seeing me answer them?

They were directed at anyone who cared to answer them. It's my hope that somebody will. You replied to pretty much everything in that post except the questions. Do you want to take a stab at the questions now?

 

[caveman1917]

I think that's what The Prestige is pointing out. He's giving a pocket summary of the trans demands.

I thought he was under the impression that current law requires surgery or hormone treatment and the demand was to remove said requirements, so I pointed out that there are already no such requirements - the doctor's note is that you suffer from gender dysphoria, not that you have, or are intending to, change anything about your body.

 

[theprestige]

I thought he was under the impression that current law requires surgery or hormone treatment and the demand was to remove said requirements, so I pointed out that there are already no such requirements - the doctor's note is that you suffer from gender dysphoria, not that you have, or are intending to, change anything about your body.

I'm honestly not clear on what the current law does and doesn't allow. I understand it requires something more than simple self-declaration. That's sufficient for my argument.

 

[Rolfe]

Now that's pretty silly. "Blackbird" isn't a word for a different kind of beast. It's a subset.

It's more as if we were being required to believe that seahorses are horses.

 

[Ziggurat]

This is a really troublesome response for me, it suggests you seem to think that people somehow need to 'deserve' to be treated as they wish.

Well, yes. Serial killers don't deserve to be treated the same way as law-abiding people. I don't care if a serial killer wants to be treated like he's done nothing wrong, I won't do that, and I don't think other people should either. Certainly out legal system doesn't do so.

Your phrasing suggests you think people will be treated badly just because they haven't done something to deserve good treatment. If so, that's a mistake. Even strangers one knows nothing about deserve a level of common courtesy, and one need not do much to deserve basic decent treatment. But civilization itself absolutely requires that you treat people differently depending on how they themselves behave.

I don't think anyone deserves to be treated as they wish.

I cannot agree with this, though that may be more of a problem of phrasing than actual disagreement. One doesn't deserve to be treated in any particular way only because they wish it. But depending on what their wish is and how they themselves behave, they may well deserve to be treated as they wish.

 

[JoeMorgue]

"Deserve to be treated" is a rather hard to parse phrase.

And it doesn't solve the base problem I've had since day 1 of the... 5 or 6 threads back.

Either Rolfe screams at me for being a misogynist who wants the poor widdle women to get raped or a I'm Transphobe who wants sexually nontraditional people to commit suicide. Wrap that up in about 50 layers at this point of semantics, categorization, people using words in different context and pretending like they aren't, and subtopic after subtopic.

Which wouldn't be a problem if both arguments weren't completely internal with no way to validate them 3rd person.

Can't win, can't lose, can't break even, can't quit the game.

 

[caveman1917]

And even that doctor's note is a burden we should ease if we can.

Yes, that is the main point of the proposed change to the GRA, to remove any medical requirements. I was simply pointing out that the current medical requirements already aren't physical (surgery or hormone treatment or anything) but psychological (that you have gender dysphoria) which is quite a big difference, especially given that most transwomen do not seek to alter their bodies.

 

[Ziggurat]

can't quit the game.

That's the one thing you can do here.

 

[Darat]

"Whining."



Look, it does suck for them. We should be sympathetic to the plight. We don't have to call it "whining" when they push for some sort of accommodation. I would like to have a more dispassionate discussion of the issue. If that's not where you're at, maybe leave my posts alone?





Again, I would like to have a discussion that recognizes both sides, and sympathetic to the concerns of ciswomen as well.



You seem to be taking any proposal to seek a more balanced solution as a capitulation on the issue. I'd rather you didn't, but if you must, maybe leave my posts alone?

I know you don't want to discuss definitions but I think definitions are what this is all about.

I have great sympathy for trans people, I can understand them just wanting to be themselves and they find it terrible when they can't be. I.e. a trans man being told they have to use the women's toilets.

I don't support the idea that one should be officially able to change their gender just by saying so, it isn't like changing a name.

If someone has as the case is currently in the UK been medically diagnosed and lived as their preferred gender for 2 years I think they should be able to have their gender officially changed.

The issue as I see it is then becomes a case of "what does it mean to officially change your gender?". And that is where various "rights" come into conflicts and it seems there is no way to make everyone 100% happy so whatever we come up with will result in no one being happy, the fine art of compromise.

Straight forward toilets? Your official gender should determine which you can use. Yes that will make some people uncomfortable but that's a "tough" from me. Going to the loo is just a bodily function.

Changing rooms such as in a sports venue? I would say you use the one you are most physically like, so if you are a trans man and still have female looking genitals you use the womens changing room, and vice a versa. Yes this make some people uncomfortable and others unhappy but that's another "tough" from me.

Sports? It is part of the entertainment industry so I say it is up to the private organisations involved to make their own calls. If some entertainments stop being fun for the participants or audiences they'll fade away and I am sure someone will innovate with something that captures people's attention.

Medically? That is based on your sex.

Services? Depends on what they are. So no no one should be forced to wax male genitals because they offer waxing of female genitals. But if it is say for getting your haircut then a trans person should be treated as per their official gender.

 

[JoeMorgue]

That's the one thing you can do here.

Here yes, reality no.

 

[Darat]

Bearing in mind it's possible that no single poster can speak for an entire country, much less an entire sex.

I speak for every balding, red headed, short arsed bloke in the world, and I am unanimous in that!