Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

[Meadmaker]

I came across a link on twitter to a video on a US newspaper web site. I couldn't watch the video as I was on my phone in a public place at the time, but I read the article. It concerned swimming-pool changing facilities at a school. There was a boy who identified as trans, although he had not taken any hormones (and of course had not had surgery). There had been a rather protracted dispute with him refusing private facilities and insisting on getting changed with the girls. There were some private changing stalls in the changing area, although not enough for everyone, and the girls mostly just changed in the open area with the benches.

The previous ruling had been that the male student could use the girls' changing room, but he had to get changed inside one of the private stalls. However he had protested about this, and said it was demeaning to him to be required to use the privacy stalls when nobody else was required to use them. This protest was successful and he had been given the green light to get changed in the open area with the girls.

From the comments the video showed the boy jubilant and high-fiving with supporters over this great victory. At the end there was an interview with one or more girls who were in tears or fighting back tears, saying how uncomfortable they were changing beside a naked boy, and that there weren't nearly enough privacy stalls for all the girls to use.

This seems emblematic of the whole situation. Women and girls are constantly being told to suck it up and castigated for bigotry when they try to articulate their desire for privacy and modesty, while the males are given everything they want. Nobody ever tells the boy who has decided that he's trans to suck it up, or ask him what his problem is changing beside other people with the same genitalia as he has, or calls him bigoted for not wanting to do that.

Those girls sound awfully jumpy.




In case there's any doubt, the above is a reference to a previous post.

I haven't seen the"high five" video, or any student interviews, but I did see the story about the case, and the details match Rolfe's account. I also agree with Rolfe's commentary.

 

[kellyb]

You mean if someone points out a clearly real potential problem (you know, like risk assessments are supposed to do), this should be disregarded if you're not absolutely certain that it has actually happened yet?

I never even implied that. Being aware of the potential for certain environments to cause an increase in anecdotes that do not accurately reflect reality is not the same thing as disregarding anything.

 

[kellyb]

What about, women have enough to deal with in life without summarily abolishng all the spaces which have, for about a century, allowed them somewhere to go to get away from males. Don't you think that sucks?

Do you really use the bathroom as a place to get away from males over there?

 

[theprestige]

What about, women have enough to deal with in life without summarily abolishng all the spaces which have, for about a century, allowed them somewhere to go to get away from males. Don't you think that sucks?

I think that sucks big time!

That's why I'm hoping this thread will at some point get past the quibbling about terms, and past the accusations of hysteria and transphobia, and actually discuss the relative merits and obvious trade-offs of the various policy proposals.

We want to make life easier for transwomen. We don't want to make life harder for ciswomen. Is there a way to square this circle? Or are we doomed to keep getting bogged down in arguments about what is a woman, and repeated advisories of what the current policy happens to be?

 

[Rolfe]

Do you really use the bathroom as a place to get away from males over there?

Of course. It's kind of what the ladies room in a pub or a dance hall or anywhere young people hang out is actually for. A stranger or even your own date is harrassing you, it's the place to go to get away. Even to enlist help. I once actually drove a girl home after she confided in me that she was concerned that her date, who was supposed to be driving her home, had other plans. Not that easy if he's able to follow you in there.

 

[Rolfe]

Why am I even back posting in this woman-hating car crash of a thread anyway, where even some of the women are lining up to tell women that they should have no right to personal privacy or boundaries and it's bigotry to feel discomfort about performing any intimate function or sleeping in the same space as people of the opposite sex.

Someone maybe needs to go and tell the trans lobby that it's bigoted to object to performing intimate functions or sleeping in the same space as someone who has the same genital configuration as they have. That the entire world does not revolve around them, and that to massively re-engineer, re-build and re-designate all women's sex-segregated spaces to open them to males is just a wee bit of an over-the-top demand coming from a tiny minority.

 

[Belz...]

Because it sucks.

Plenty of things suck in life.

People have enough to deal with in life, without having to be challenged for identity papers just to use a public restroom.

Here's the issue, though: not everyone has the same issues. Poor people can't pay a lawyer's fees. Handicapped people can't run up stairs.

Thing is, when the term "trans" refered to people who _had_ gone through the transition, it wasn't such of an issue. The problem is that the pendulum has gone so far in that direction that mere self-identification is enough to overturn biology and everything else. Now you have people who are male in every conceivable way asking for access to the female restroom on their say-so. But if they _haven't_ gone through transition, why not go to the male restroom?

Already addressed.

Addressed? I was addressing your own claim.

Already addressed, at length, repeatedly in this thread.

Yes, that's what I said, but shorter: unless you redefine "woman", trans women are not women.

 

[Lithrael]

Thanks Kelly, btw, for your posts. It seems your views are similar enough to mine on this, but I get all upset trying to talk about it.

 

[theprestige]

Plenty of things suck in life.



Here's the issue, though: not everyone has the same issues. Poor people can't pay a lawyer's fees. Handicapped people can't run up stairs.

And I think that as a society, where possible, where the overall tradeoffs are better, we should try to make these things suck a little less (and in fact we do).

<snip> But if they _haven't_ gone through transition, why not go to the male restroom?

That is, indeed, the question.

Addressed? I was addressing your own claim.

I'd already addressed that claim in the sentences immediately following the one you quoted.

Yes, that's what I said, but shorter: unless you redefine "woman", trans women are not women.

The terminology debate has been done to death. I don't see any point in repeating it over and over again. Do you want to take a stab at answering my questions?

 

[Rolfe]

Thanks Kelly, btw, for your posts. It seems your views are similar enough to mine on this, but I get all upset trying to talk about it.

You get all upset at the very idea that some (many) women have boundaries and modesty and personal safety concerns and aren't gladly welcoming any and all males into their sex-segregated spaces just so the poor put-upon trans flowers won't have their feelings hurt?

Wow.

 

[Rolfe]

And I think that as a society, where possible, where the overall tradeoffs are better, we should try to make these things suck a little less (and in fact we do).

And why is it that all these things have to be done because the trans lobby is whining about things they say suck for them, but there is absolutely no concern about whether doing these things then makes things suck for women and girls? Who are kind of a larger group than transwomen, and moreover didn't choose their sex.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Q: Can we get past the hysteria and actually discuss?
A: [hysteria]

Let's try again in 2029.

 

[theprestige]

And why is it that all these things have to be done because the trans lobby is whining about things they say suck for them,

"Whining."

Look, it does suck for them. We should be sympathetic to the plight. We don't have to call it "whining" when they push for some sort of accommodation. I would like to have a more dispassionate discussion of the issue. If that's not where you're at, maybe leave my posts alone?

but there is absolutely no concern about whether doing these things then makes things suck for women and girls? Who are kind of a larger group than transwomen, and moreover didn't choose their sex.

Again, I would like to have a discussion that recognizes both sides, and sympathetic to the concerns of ciswomen as well.

You seem to be taking any proposal to seek a more balanced solution as a capitulation on the issue. I'd rather you didn't, but if you must, maybe leave my posts alone?

 

[kellyb]

Of course. It's kind of what the ladies room in a pub or a dance hall or anywhere young people hang out is actually for. A stranger or even your own date is harrassing you, it's the place to go to get away. Even to enlist help. I once actually drove a girl home after she confided in me that she was concerned that her date, who was supposed to be driving her home, had other plans. Not that easy if he's able to follow you in there.

That is a radically different culture you have in Scotland from anything I've ever heard of in the US, anywhere.

If I went to a bar or club or anything like that and a stranger was harassing me, I'd go to the bartender. The last place I'd go to escape would be the bathroom! Bartenders serve as bouncers in the US. (unless you're a female bartender at a gay bar, in which case the entire population of guys at the bar is basically your army to summon, and they'll all together kick out whoever you say should be kicked out.)

eta: I see it in movies that women do the whole "Let's go to the lady's room," thing to be private away from other people, but only once in my life has someone asked me to go with them to the bathroom, to use it as an excuse to talk in private.

I think in my neck of the woods people are more gender integrated in general. Or I'm just not typical at all.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I'm sorry, but that doesn't clarify your statement at all. I am asking you whether your claim about knowing objective reality was general or specific to our more narrow discussion.

I'm not really sure what your question is. Can we know objective reality about some things? Of course. Can we know objective reality about this thing? Certainly not now. And I think if we are talking about things that are necessarily subjective (i.e. feelings, perceptions, emotions) then there is always going to be some fuzziness. Ultimately you are going to have to rely on the reports of the person being studied, surely?

Then you are saying that have actually no way to know _other_ than the word of the person in question?

Currently that would appear to be the case. Either its self-reported or its reported to a professional who makes a diagnosis.

If you are aware of a current method to determine things more objectively, I am all ears. But absent that it does no good to talk about things that don't currently exist.

 

[kellyb]

You get all upset at the very idea that some (many) women have boundaries and modesty and personal safety concerns and aren't gladly welcoming any and all males into their sex-segregated spaces just so the poor put-upon trans flowers won't have their feelings hurt?

Wow.

I'm not upset. It's just interesting to me how different the cultures seem to be between Scotland and the US.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

As opposed to people using their internal conceptions to decree whether one person or another should treat them as they wish to be?

Yes, surely the aim should be to treat as many people as possible as they wish to be provided it doesn't cause harm to anyone else?

This is a really troublesome response for me, it suggests you seem to think that people somehow need to 'deserve' to be treated as they wish.

It's just weird and bothering on a number of levels.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I'm not upset. It's just interesting to me how different the cultures seem to be between Scotland and the US.

Bearing in mind it's possible that no single poster can speak for an entire country, much less an entire sex.

 

[kellyb]

Thanks Kelly, btw, for your posts. It seems your views are similar enough to mine on this, but I get all upset trying to talk about it.

What country are you in?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Why not?

First of all, women don't declare anything in order to go. They just do. Second, and this is important, trans women are not women. They are trans women; hence the different name. The whole question should be how to give access to trans women and trans men to this or that. Whether they're actually women or men is already answered, unless you change the definitions involved.

Then cis-women aren't women either according to this weird and wonderful logic?

And a blackbird isn't a bird.

Honestly? You are going with this argument?