House Impeachment Inquiry

[kellyb]

No, it doesn't.

Personally, my respect for Biden has increased after finding out that he didn't force his son out of the position to make Biden himself look better - Hunter doesn't have to refuse a lucrative gig just because his Dad is VP.

Hunter doesn't have to refuse a lucrative gig he only got because his Dad is VP just because his Dad is VP?

LOL

 

[PhantomWolf]

I'd have no problem with laws that prevented this kind of thing

What kind of law? A law that says that kids of politicians can't be company directors? A Law that means any job offer to a kid of a politician has to be vetted in case the company is hoping to use them as a channel to their parent? A law that says you have to prove that you hired the best suited person for the job and explain why they got it and others didn't? A law that just banned politician's kids, spouses, parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, and in-laws from having a job unless they are self employed?

 

[PhantomWolf]

Doesn't really matter how qualified most board members are (what are Hunter's qualifications? I genuinely don't know).

If you don't know what the qualification for the job were, and you don't know that HB's qualifications are, and you don't know why Burisma actually hired him, how can you be so sure that he only got the job because of his father?

 

[kellyb]

That he accepted means he was willing to help them curry favor through his father.

Not necessarily. I mean, maybe, but these companies want the high octane last names on their boards for the prestige and appearance of uber-legitimacy factor, too.

The very appearance of the ability to curry favor holds power.

I really wish we could flat-out make this stuff illegal.

 

[acbytesla]

What kind of law? A law that says that kids of politicians can't be company directors? A Law that means any job offer to a kid of a politician has to be vetted in case the company is hoping to use them as a channel to their parent? A law that says you have to prove that you hired the best suited person for the job and explain why they got it and others didn't? A law that just banned politician's kids, spouses, parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, and in-laws from having a job unless they are self employed?

Frankly Phantom, I'm not sure. I was always the guy without connections. I would have loved having some, cause I see what they can do for a career.

 

[kellyb]

What kind of law? A law that says that kids of politicians can't be company directors? A Law that means any job offer to a kid of a politician has to be vetted in case the company is hoping to use them as a channel to their parent? A law that says you have to prove that you hired the best suited person for the job and explain why they got it and others didn't? A law that just banned politician's kids, spouses, parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, and in-laws from having a job unless they are self employed?

This law:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/208

Except as permitted by subsection (b) hereof, whoever, being an officer or employee of the executive branch of the United States Government, or of any independent agency of the United States, a Federal Reserve bank director, officer, or employee, or an officer or employee of the District of Columbia, including a special Government employee, participates personally and substantially as a Government officer or employee, through decision, approval, disapproval, recommendation, the rendering of advice, investigation, or otherwise, in a judicial or other proceeding, application, request for a ruling or other determination, contract, claim, controversy, charge, accusation, arrest, or other particular matter in which, to his knowledge, he, his spouse, minor child, general partner, organization in which he is serving as officer, director, trustee, general partner or employee, or any person or organization with whom he is negotiating or has any arrangement concerning prospective employment, has a financial interest—
Shall be subject to the penalties set forth in section 216 of this title.

"Minor child" could be changed to "minor or adult child."

Problem solved.

 

[phiwum]

If you don't know what the qualification for the job were, and you don't know that HB's qualifications are, and you don't know why Burisma actually hired him, how can you be so sure that he only got the job because of his father?

A fair point. Let's say I'm playing the probabilities.

The odds that Hunter was literally the best candidate (or as good as the best) and chosen without consideration of who his father is strikes me as unlikely, but unlikely things happen.

 

[PhantomWolf]

This law:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/208



"Minor child" could be changed to "minor or adult child."

Problem solved.

Not really, there is no evidence that Joe Biden was involved in any "decision, approval, disapproval, recommendation, the rendering of advice, investigation, or otherwise, in a judicial or other proceeding, application, request for a ruling or other determination, contract, claim, controversy, charge, accusation, arrest, or other particular matter in which" Hunter had a financial interest in.

 

[PhantomWolf]

A fair point. Let's say I'm playing the probabilities.

The odds that Hunter was literally the best candidate (or as good as the best) and chosen without consideration of who his father is strikes me as unlikely, but unlikely things happen.

You could say that for any candidate for any job. It just strikes me as funny that people keep going on about he held a number of high power jobs, but wasn't qualified for holding a high power job, even though one of the qualifications for that would be having held previous high power jobs.

 

[Stacyhs]

Frankly Phantom, I'm not sure. I was always the guy without connections. I would have loved having some, cause I see what they can do for a career.

Very often WHO you know can be very important in getting an interview. However, WHAT you know gets you the job. Unless, of course, all they want is your name.

 

[Stacyhs]

A fair point. Let's say I'm playing the probabilities.

The odds that Hunter was literally the best candidate (or as good as the best) and chosen without consideration of who his father is strikes me as unlikely, but unlikely things happen.

I wonder if Jared Kushner was the best candidate for the job of handling policy in the Middle East? Other than being Trump's son-in-law, what qualifications as an expert in the Middle East did he hold? AFAIK, none. Being Jewish doesn't count.

What about Ivanka? What expertise did she hold in order to be an adviser to Trump? What suit to wear? Red or blue tie?

 

[acbytesla]

Doesn't really matter how qualified most board members are (what are Hunter's qualifications? I genuinely don't know). The question is whether he was benefiting from his father's office and whether he shouldn't have been.

Sure looks like he was to me. It's possible I'm wrong and he's particularly well-suited for the job and his father's job never even crossed the minds of the folks at Burisma, but I kinda doubt it. And I think that he shouldn't have done that.

Do other kids of famous and powerful folks do the same? I reckon so. Even sons-in-law manage to reach positions of power for no reason other than their wife's daddy. (Aren't we lucky that Kushner is so darned good at his job, though?) I don't think that Hunter did anything worse than lots of folks.

But he still deserves criticism for what he did.

And none of this, of course, warrants an investigation by Ukraine or calling Hunter to testify in the impeachment hearing.

Who deserves criticism? Hunter or Joe?

Hunter has had the benefit of having a powerful father since day one. How many people do you know that rise to being Executive Vice President of a big company like MBNA two years out of law school? Not many. Still, we might be a little unfair as we cannot honestly say that Hunter wasn't deserving. Keep in mind that the last REPUBLICAN President appointed Hunter Biden to the Board of Directors of Amtrak.

I look at Hunter Biden's history and it seems EXACTLY what I expect from the son of Senator's son just like another director of Burisma Chris Heinz. Living on the edges of their families' success. But what's a parent to do? Sabotage their own progeny because of how it might look when more than likely no one will ever really object?

BTW, I think we're in agreement mostly. It just seems ridiculous for Trump and the Republicans trying to make hay out of this.

 

[Stacyhs]

Who deserves criticism? Hunter or Joe?

Hunter has had the benefit of having a powerful father since day one. How many people do you know that rise to being Executive Vice President of a big company like MBNA two years out of law school? Not many. Still, we might be a little unfair as we cannot honestly say that Hunter wasn't deserving. Keep in mind that the last REPUBLICAN President appointed Hunter Biden to the Board of Directors of Amtrak.

I look at Hunter Biden's history and it seems EXACTLY what I expect from the son of Senator's son just like another director of Burisma Chris Heinz. Living on the edges of their families' success. But what's a parent to do? Sabotage their own progeny because of how it might look when more than likely no one will ever really object?

BTW, I think we're in agreement mostly. It just seems ridiculous for Trump and the Republicans trying to make hay out of this.

Of course it is; but it's all they've got to try and divert from Trump's using tax payers' money to benefit personally in the 2020 election.

 

[acbytesla]

Very often WHO you know can be very important in getting an interview. However, WHAT you know gets you the job. Unless, of course, all they want is your name.

Its not what you know that matters but who you blow. Or if you're a lucky sperm.

I still will never forget a company I worked for hiring a kid ten years my junior with no experience to be my boss. I had to train him and found him to be a lazy idiot. Turns out, his father was a billionaire who had invested millions in our company. I never saw anyone rise through the ranks like that kid. Within a year they promoted him to VP.

 

[Giordano]

Gee, people with important connections are given preferential treatment; that's a surprise! And family connections are among the strongest of all.

Fact is that it is absolutely pervasive throughout all layers of society. You may have noticed how often children of actors successfully become actors. Must be talent, right?

Often the connection doesn't even need to discussed explicitly for the person to benefit from it. The beneficiary doesn't need to bring it up. They may not even be able to avoid benefiting from it even they wish to avoid it (particularly if they have an obviously famous name or the connection is similarly very obvious). This is not to say that others shamelessly, actively, and aggressively exploit their connections (I.e. IMO the Trump clan).

 

[Stacyhs]

Its not what you know that matters but who you blow. Or if you're a lucky sperm.

I still will never forget a company I worked for hiring a kid ten years my junior with no experience to be my boss. I had to train him and found him to be a lazy idiot. Turns out, his father was a billionaire who had invested millions in our company. I never saw anyone rise through the ranks like that kid. Within a year they promoted him to VP.

I think we're in violent agreement here. Your name, if it's related to a big time donor, is, for all practical purposes ,the same thing as what I said:

Unless, of course, all they want is your name.

 

[acbytesla]

Gee, people with important connections are given preferential treatment; that's a surprise! And family connections are among the strongest of all.

Fact is that it is absolutely pervasive throughout all layers of society. You may have noticed how often children of actors successfully become actors. Must be talent, right?

Often the connection doesn't even need to discussed explicitly for the person to benefit from it. The beneficiary doesn't need to bring it up. They may not even be able to avoid benefiting from it even they wish to avoid it (particularly if they have an obviously famous name or the connection is similarly very obvious). This is not to say that others shamelessly, actively, and aggressively exploit their connections (I.e. IMO the Trump clan).

EXACTLY!!! You could look at Hollywood and see not only actors getting ahead because familial connections in the movie industry but what is also interesting are the actors who are the progeny of titans of industry. Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 well known actresses that come from billions. Kyra Sedgewick, Julia Dreyfuss and Rooney Mara. I bet there are many more. Do we really think that all these actors were head and shoulders better in their auditions? Or that just maybe giving some rich kid a role would help a producer get funding for their next project?

 

[phiwum]

I wonder if Jared Kushner was the best candidate for the job of handling policy in the Middle East? Other than being Trump's son-in-law, what qualifications as an expert in the Middle East did he hold? AFAIK, none. Being Jewish doesn't count.

What about Ivanka? What expertise did she hold in order to be an adviser to Trump? What suit to wear? Red or blue tie?

I already raised Kushner in a previous post. My comments were about Hunter Biden, not the Trump kids.

I agree that nepotism in this administration is a shame. That is irrelevant to my point.

If, as others have suggested, Biden was well qualified, then my premise is false.

 

[acbytesla]

I think we're in violent agreement here. Your name, if it's related to a big time donor, is, for all practical purposes ,the same thing as what I said:

I've always said that the best way to get ahead is to pick your parents.

 

[phiwum]

Who deserves criticism? Hunter or Joe?

Hunter has had the benefit of having a powerful father since day one. How many people do you know that rise to being Executive Vice President of a big company like MBNA two years out of law school? Not many. Still, we might be a little unfair as we cannot honestly say that Hunter wasn't deserving. Keep in mind that the last REPUBLICAN President appointed Hunter Biden to the Board of Directors of Amtrak.

I look at Hunter Biden's history and it seems EXACTLY what I expect from the son of Senator's son just like another director of Burisma Chris Heinz. Living on the edges of their families' success. But what's a parent to do? Sabotage their own progeny because of how it might look when more than likely no one will ever really object?

BTW, I think we're in agreement mostly. It just seems ridiculous for Trump and the Republicans trying to make hay out of this.

Gaining advantage due to family is nigh unavoidable. What makes this look bad is that it was a company in a foreign nation while Biden was VP. It gives a bad appearance.

I think you're right that you and I are in agreement more or less.