Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

[Rolfe]

No, not accessories. Women can force men into sex. Isn't that rape by any reasonable definition?

I'm not talking about anybody's opinion of a "reasonable" definition, I'm working on the legal definition of the crime of rape in the country that was the subject of the discussion when the topic came up. That is non-consensual penetration of the vagina, mouth or anus by a penis. In this country a woman cannot physically commit rape. She may conceivably be convicted of being an accessory to rape under certain circumstances.

It's quite interesting psychologically how many men seem enthusiastic about extending the definition of rape so that they can claim "women rape too!" I appreciate that this is actually the case in some jurisdictions but I wonder at the outrage being expressed over a jurisdiction where rape retains its original "with a penis" definition. I mean, it's not as if anyone is saying it's OK for a woman to forcibly penetrate someone with an object or a finger, or to force an unwilling man into penetrating her, it's just that these crimes have different names. I also wonder if the extension of the definition of rape in these other jurisdictions has been driven by men who are keen to be able to declare "but women can rape too!"

All very interesting, indeed.

Since rape has become a topic, I search for "female rapists" and found this:

--snip--

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...y-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

Yes, well, that's America, where they have (or some states have) adopted a definition of rape that is different to the one in the country we were originally talking about.

It's almost as if men want to downgrade the particular horror of actual rape so that they can say "women can rape too!" I wonder why that would be?

 

[Belz...]

Whether it is or not it is completely irrelevant to the subject of this thread.

Well, it's a claim that was brought up. If we just let stuff like that stand because addressing it would be off-topic, then what's the point of all this? Besides, it's not off-topic.

 

[Rolfe]

Looking for info about this, I came across this article:

First UK transgender prison unit to open

Only three prisoners who have Gender Recognition Certificates? Officially, legally transgender, not simply "identifying" as such.

Not clear whether Karen White is among these three prisoners.

It's not clear to me whether those numbers only include those with GRCs, or whether it's a looser definition such as self-identification.

But apparently the solution that the prison system is favoring is to put transgender prisoners in a separate unit away from female prisoners.

That's very interesting. I'm not sure it's working the way they present it in that article because there are already complaints from women prisoners that they are being sexually harrassed by the "transwomen" during certain activities where the males are being given access to the same activities as the women. As I said, I fail to see the logic in establishing a unit to cater for males with an identity problem as part of a woman's prison. Either make it part of a male prison or have a standalone facility.

It sounds as if this is an attempt to cater for prisoners who actually have a GRC. That would make some sense of attaching the unit to a women's prison as these men do have some legal status as women. And there are only three of them. This in itself is interesting because at one point the prison authorities said they had no information about how many transwomen with a GRC were in prison as anyone with a GRC was recorded as their legal identity not their sex. And if I'm picking this up correctly, they are still causing trouble by sexually harrassing the women inmates when they get the chance.

This however is a small problem compared to the number of trans-identifying men who do not have a GRC. This report from 2017 notes 125 transgender males in prison in England and Wales, 60 of whom were sex offenders.

This is clearly an ongoing issue, but the bottom line is that women who are in prison are a vulnerable population, and doubly vulnerable because they have no means to escape whoever they are imprisoned with. Women's prisons should not be forced to become the asylum for men with identity issues.

 

[Rolfe]

The idea is to throw as much **** as you can and see what sticks. They are perverts, dangerous, sick, mentally ill, whatever it takes to be allowed to discriminate against them. It's always been thus.

No.

You really need to stop talking for all women.

I'm talking for a pretty large number of women, a number which is growing daily as more and more women realise what is going on. You really need to stop believing that women's rights are within your gift to give away to problematic men.

If you want to use legal definitions then people who have legally changed their gender from male to female are women. So stop calling them men.

Actually we're mostly not talking about people who have done anything legally at all. Only about 1% of men in Britain who identify as transgender actually have a GRC. The other 99% are legally men. Men, indeed.

 

[Belz...]

I'm not talking about anybody's opinion of a "reasonable" definition, I'm working on the legal definition of the crime of rape in the country that was the subject of the discussion when the topic came up. That is non-consensual penetration of the vagina, mouth or anus by a penis. In this country a woman cannot physically commit rape. She may conceivably be convicted of being an accessory to rape under certain circumstances.

It's quite interesting psychologically how many men seem enthusiastic about extending the definition of rape so that they can claim "women rape too!" I appreciate that this is actually the case in some jurisdictions but I wonder at the outrage being expressed over a jurisdiction where rape retains its original "with a penis" definition. I mean, it's not as if anyone is saying it's OK for a woman to forcibly penetrate someone with an object or a finger, or to force an unwilling man into penetrating her, it's just that these crimes have different names. I also wonder if the extension of the definition of rape in these other jurisdictions has been driven by men who are keen to be able to declare "but women can rape too!"

All very interesting, indeed.

I don't know why you're being dismissive. These things are called "rape" in many places because that's how they're being viewed.

 

[Ziggurat]

The idea is to throw as much **** as you can and see what sticks. They are perverts, dangerous, sick, mentally ill, whatever it takes to be allowed to discriminate against them. It's always been thus.

Not putting transwomen in women's prison is discrimination. But I don't accept the premise that it's discrimination against them. Separating women and men in prison is discrimination. You discriminate (make a distinction) between men and women. But is it discrimination against cismen to not put them in women's prisons? I'm sure plenty of them would prefer it. If I was sentenced to prison, I would likely prefer it. A man need not even be a predator, pervert, etc. in order to have such a preference. A man in a women's prison is less likely to be physically assaulted by other inmates than a man in a men's prison, for example. But we still don't allow it. The logic for making this division between mens' and womens' prisons isn't based on gender, it's ultimately based on biological sex. And that still applies to transwomen, especially transwomen who haven't undergone gender reassignment surgery.

 

[Rolfe]

I don't know why you're being dismissive. These things are called "rape" in many places because that's how they're being viewed.

I'm not being dismissive. I find it interesting how vehemently men seem to want to expand the definition of rape so that they can declare "women rape too!" They want other violations to be considered to be equivalent to the ultimate violation of rape, to the point where this has become the legal definition in some places.

But as I said, this is turning into a derail and I think we should park it.

 

[Meadmaker]

Speaking of prison issues, I can't help but wonder what what will become of Alec McKinney and similar people. Alec is a sixteen year old transboy who will almost certainly be convicted, as an adult, of first degree murder. (Colorado stem school shooter)

 

[Belz...]

I'm not being dismissive. I find it interesting how vehemently men seem to want to expand the definition of rape so that they can declare "women rape too!"

Exactly there! That's being dismissive. Rather than look at the point on its own merit you assign a vague agenda to those who bring it up. I guess a more cynical person might ask why you so vehemently want to restrict the definition of rape so that you can declare "women can't rape!"

 

[Meadmaker]

The idea is to throw as much **** as you can and see what sticks. They are perverts, dangerous, sick, mentally ill, whatever it takes to be allowed to discriminate against them. It's always been thus.

There's a bit of irony here. You reproached Rolfe for speaking for all women. This is the second post you have made recently that speaks for people in a class of which you are not even a part.

I might add that you don't seem to understand the thoughts of people in that class. By contrast, I think Rolfe was probably pretty accurate regarding the thoughts of most women. Maybe not all, but most.

 

[Rolfe]

Exactly there! That's being dismissive. Rather than look at the point on its own merit you assign a vague agenda to those who bring it up. I guess a more cynical person might ask why you so vehemently want to restrict the definition of rape so that you can declare "women can't rape!"

I'm not the one who's restricting it. That is what rape has meant for a very long time. I'm merely finding the dodging and diving of those who want it to mean something different an interesting psychological observation.

 

[Belz...]

I'm not the one who's restricting it. That is what rape has meant for a very long time.

And marriage has meant a religious union between a man and a woman for a very long time. So what?

I'm merely finding the dodging and diving of those who want it to mean something different an interesting psychological observation.

More condescension towards men! You know the one about throwing stones, right?

 

[Lithrael]

I might add that you don't seem to understand the thoughts of people in that class. By contrast, I think Rolfe was probably pretty accurate regarding the thoughts of most women. Maybe not all, but most.

Not complaining about your post in particular, but this sort of concept is why I keep ending up wanting to throw all of gender in a trash fire. I’ve always been girl enough for people to blame my stereotypical-girl-shortcomings on my being a girl, but not girl enough for any of my ‘girls aren’t necessarily like that, I’m a girl and I’m not like that’ to count; I’m told I’m not like other girls.

 

[Rolfe]

Speaking of prison issues, I can't help but wonder what what will become of Alec McKinney and similar people. Alec is a sixteen year old transboy who will almost certainly be convicted, as an adult, of first degree murder. (Colorado stem school shooter)

I know that in Britain women who identify as trans are permitted to choose to be in the female prison estate. I'm a bit hazy as to whether there is anyone actually in prison under these circumstances. I little while ago I read a discussion about this issue on a Reddit forum among a group of teenage girls who wanted to transition. They were all absolutely adamant that while they wanted to be treated as boys (not too sure about the "men" part) they categorically drew the line at actually having to serve time in a male prison.

I had heard about the school shooter situation. I think a lot will depend on the law in Colorado, and also on whether she has actually taken legal steps to be recognised as a man. I think it would be unconscionable if she was sent to a male prison.

This is just one more illustration of the principle that there are some things that have to be segregated by biological sex. If this is causing real issues then arrange a solution which offers specific segregated facilities for trans people.

 

[Ziggurat]

I’m told I’m not like other girls.

Is it meant as a compliment?

 

[Lithrael]

Let’s segregate prison housing by how much the prisoners can deadlift.

 

[Lithrael]

Is it meant as a compliment?

It’s usually stuff like not being admitted as a counterpoint to statements like “I would never want a daughter, they just cry and scream and shop.”

On the other end of the spectrum, my guy friends who aren’t like ‘other guys’ don’t count as evidence that ‘guys aren’t all like that’ because all either a) they are like that, they just hide it because war on men or something, or b) my friends are weirdos.

It’s annoying.

 

[d4m10n]

And marriage has meant a religious union between a man and a women for a very long time. So what?

So we should stick with British common law concept of rape as a crime against property rightfully belonging to a patriarch.

 

[Belz...]

Let’s segregate prison housing by how much the prisoners can deadlift.

 

[Ziggurat]

It’s usually stuff like not being admitted as a counterpoint to statements like “I would never want a daughter, they just cry and scream and shop.”

Yeah, I can see how that would raise someone's hackles. My response to that is maybe they aren't man enough to raise a daughter to not act that way.

There's a very different situation in which that statement can come up, where some women get offended by their boyfriends telling them that they aren't like other girls. That's not what you described, but it's one in which I think they're wrong to be offended. One should not want a boyfriend who finds one interchangeable with other women. Same with the sexes reversed.