Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

[Rolfe]

Wait a minute...this is taking a tack that lacks any sort of logic.

Even assuming autogynaephilia, which you call a fetish, is behind transgenderism what does that have to do with being a sexual predator? If someone is sexually aroused by the thought of themelf as a woman, a lumberjack or a cabbage...so what?

Are you equating sexual fetishes with sexual violence? Because I don't think that is correct.

Granted there are harmful fetishes out there (voyeurism without consent, or fetishes that involve force, for example) but I think you need to provide some support to link a fetish involving perception of one's self to violence against another.

If you read what I wrote, I was expanding the problem demographic to include men who are sexually problematic, but not necessarily committing sexual assaults as such. The behaviour of many autogynaephilic men in women's spaces is deeply problematic because they are using their ability to enter these spaces as "gender affirmation therapy". The whole thing is sexual with them.

Women do not want to share their spaces with men who are getting off on the whole experience of being in a women's space, wanking in the loos, peeing all over the toilet seat, rifling through the bins for used sanitary products and fantasising about helping a young girl insert a tampon. Even the ones who are doing no more than LARPing womanhood make women deeply uncomfortable.

 

[Rolfe]

And yet you have no numbers regarding the incidence of trans people who are sex offenders. And no, that link is not that. It is a list of trans people convicted of violent crimes going back several decades. Ignoring the fact that not all of the crimes were sex crimes, a count only provides a numerator, not a denominator.

The post you link doesn't even try to make a case linking between sex crimes or violence to being trans. It's just making the point of what prison do you put trans people in. An adjacent, but different issue.

I didn't claim anything different. I have already explained why we don't have these incidence figures. Because we don't have any reliable figures for the number of transwomen in the country. Also because the police now record these offenders simply as "female" which means there's no way of getting numbers from official statistics - one is reliant on other sources such as press reports to confirm the "woman's" trans status.

The figure of 48% of (non-GRC) transwomen who are in prison being in there for some sort of sexual crime is from a different source.

How many is too many? Why do you want women to make their lives the asylum for problematic men?

 

[p0lka]

I quite liked Obi Wan Kenobi / Mighty Almighty who is also a Tiffany.

To all the people who are entirely happy to allow any man who identifies as a woman to serve his sentence in a women's prison, these are the people you're wanting locked up in what ar at most (in male prison terms) medium security establishments where there are no facilities for segregating predatory and violent men away from women who may be abuse victims in jail for defaulting on a fine.

Women in prison can't escape from these men. "Karen White" raped a woman in a women's prison. In court the victim was forced to describe the assault using the words "her erect penis". I can't beging to imagine the male entitlement that can say, this is OK, these are really women so it's fine.

Look, we get it. Some men have difficulty living in a masculine role. Just stop turning women's spaces and women's lives into the asylum.

Maybe that is an argument about the design of prisons in general.

You seem to be bothered about 'pretend females' raping females in prison yes?

do you feel bothered about 'real' females raping females in prison at all?
or 'real' males raping males in prison?

I think they need to re-think prison design so that that stuff doesn't happen.

This bogus whinging about certain examples of rape are terrible, whilst ignoring all the other examples of rape that happen all the time in your prisons, is a fudging joke.
Sort your prison system out.

 

[Rolfe]

Females can't rape anyone, it's physically impossible. Only 2% of convictions for sexual assault are of females. Males make up 98% of sexual assault offenders. Irrespective of what happens in male prisons (and do you have any figures on male rape in British prisons becaue I genuinely don't), that is no reason for making women's prisons less safe by putting men in them.

There is a reason why prisons are segregated male and female. Males are larger, stronger and more aggressive than females. They also vastly outnumber women in the prison system. They are also overwhelmingly more likely to commit sexual offences. In Denmark, about 10 years ago, they got so woke they decided to desegregate the prison system, and all new builds were designed for that purpose. They have finally caved in and admitted it isn't working, and they're having to take steps to re-segregate the facilities.

In this country there are no women's high-security prisons comparable to the men's high security prisons. It has never been necessary. No matter how bad-ass a woman, it has never been necessary to construct these sort of facilities. There are also no facilities in most women's prisons for segregating one inmate completely from the rest of the prison population. It has never been necessary.

In one women's prison in England they built a special transwomen's unit. That segregated the problem away to some extent, but the women still complain they're being harrassed by importunate men in leisure facilities and some educational placements. I don't get the logic of building a special unit for men with identity issues attached to a women's prison.

We don't need to sort out our prison system, or not in the way you suggest. We do need to stop demanding that women's spaces become the aslyum for non-conforming men.

 

[p0lka]

Females can't rape anyone, it's physically impossible.

Yeah legally true, but I do think the definition of rape should be extended to any non-consensual penetration.
What if I make a 3d print model of my penis and then non consentualy penetrate someone with it, is that rape?
What if I give it to a female and then she does the same thing, is that rape?
What if I cut my penis off and then use that to do the same thing, is that rape?

It seems that the term 'rape' was decided to be a special thing under the patriarchy, a special rule just for penises, which is wrong.
Any non consensual penetration is equal to rape in my opinion, it doesn't have to be a penis.

Only 2% of convictions for sexual assault are of females. Males make up 98% of sexual assault offenders. Irrespective of what happens in male prisons (and do you have any figures on male rape in British prisons becaue I genuinely don't), that is no reason for making women's prisons less safe by putting men in them.

There is a reason why prisons are segregated male and female. Males are larger, stronger and more aggressive than females. They also vastly outnumber women in the prison system. They are also overwhelmingly more likely to commit sexual offences. In Denmark, about 10 years ago, they got so woke they decided to desegregate the prison system, and all new builds were designed for that purpose. They have finally caved in and admitted it isn't working, and they're having to take steps to re-segregate the facilities.

In this country there are no women's high-security prisons comparable to the men's high security prisons. It has never been necessary. No matter how bad-ass a woman, it has never been necessary to construct these sort of facilities. There are also no facilities in most women's prisons for segregating one inmate completely from the rest of the prison population. It has never been necessary.

In one women's prison in England they built a special transwomen's unit. That segregated the problem away to some extent, but the women still complain they're being harrassed by importunate men in leisure facilities and some educational placements. I don't get the logic of building a special unit for men with identity issues attached to a women's prison.

We don't need to sort out our prison system, or not in the way you suggest. We do need to stop demanding that women's spaces become the aslyum for non-conforming men.

Thanks for that, it's given me a lot to think about.

 

[Ziggurat]

Females can't rape anyone, it's physically impossible.

That’s only true for certain definitions of rape. And those definitions are frankly not as good as definitions where it is possible. If a female forces a male to penetrate her against his will, that should still constitute rape, and in many places it legally does.

 

[Belz...]

Females can't rape anyone, it's physically impossible.

Sorry, what? How narrow is your definition of "rape", here?

 

[Rolfe]

Yeah legally true, but I do think the definition of rape should be extended to any non-consensual penetration.
What if I make a 3d print model of my penis and then non consentualy penetrate someone with it, is that rape?
What if I give it to a female and then she does the same thing, is that rape?
What if I cut my penis off and then use that to do the same thing, is that rape?

It seems that the term 'rape' was decided to be a special thing under the patriarchy, a special rule just for penises, which is wrong.
Any non consensual penetration is equal to rape in my opinion, it doesn't have to be a penis.

Well, I don't think your opinion that crimes should have different names just because you don't approve really adds weight to the discussion. Rape is non-consensual penetration of the vagina, anus or mouth by an actual penis. Using any sort of dildo, no matter how it is produced or how realistic it is or who is wielding it, is not rape, it is assault by penetration and it carries exactly the same penalties. The law makes this distinction and I'm sorry if this offends you for some reason but that is the reality. I don't think anyone is realistically concerned about what you might do with your penis after you've hacked it off.

Thanks for that, it's given me a lot to think about.

Yes, I think there is a lot to think about around this topic and I'm pleased someone is doing that.

If a female forces a male to penetrate her against his will, that should still constitute rape,

I believe women have been convicted as accessories to rape under circumstances similar to this. However, when we're talking about letting men into women's prisons this isn't really a super-relevant point.

 

[Ziggurat]

What if I make a 3d print model of my penis and then non consentualy penetrate someone with it, is that rape?
What if I give it to a female and then she does the same thing, is that rape?

In the US, some states define that as rape and some define it as sodomy.

 

[Rolfe]

Dragging this back to the original topic of sports, I see that women's rugby is being squeezed two ways. There's now a ladies team in Rotherham which has a man in it (who identifies as a woman, natch), and also a woman who has filled herself up with testosterone because she identifies as a man (although she still seems to be called Verity). Now the latter will never get to be as strong as the former (on average, I couldn't say about these two individuals) but both of them are going to be considerably stronger than the women (again on average).

I guess the team itself is pretty happy about this (apart from the women who aren't in the team any more), but pity help their opponents.

Now what is going on here? Apparently we must accept the men into the women's teams as the poor wee flowers will kill themselves if they're told to go and play in the men's team (it's that "gender affirmation therapy" thing again, otherwise known as validation). But somehow the woman on the testosterone is still OK to play on the women's team? How does that work?

And we have in Kent a women's cricket team containing a man called Maxine Blythin who has just been awarded the title of woman cricketer of the year. Maxine has a batting average of 124 with the women's team. While in the men's team his batting average was - well I can't find it in the article but low double figures. He was nothing special. Cricket recognises women's lesser strength and speed and so women play with lighter balls and the boundaries are set closer. They also don't require men to do anything at all to play at county level as women other than say they're women. They don't have to lower their testosterone and they certainly don't have to have a GRC.

 

[Rolfe]

In the US, some states define that as rape and some define it as sodomy.

It would be assault by penetration in both Scotland and England I believe. I appreciate different countries have different definitions but since we were specifically discussing the British prison establishment here I was of course working to British definitions of the crimes.

 

[p0lka]

Well, I don't think your opinion that crimes should have different names just because you don't approve really adds weight to the discussion. Rape is non-consensual penetration of the vagina, anus or mouth by an actual penis. Using any sort of dildo, no matter how it is produced or how realistic it is or who is wielding it, is not rape, it is assault by penetration and it carries exactly the same penalties. The law makes this distinction and I'm sorry if this offends you for some reason but that is the reality. I don't think anyone is realistically concerned about what you might do with your penis after you've hacked it off.




Yes, I think there is a lot to think about around this topic and I'm pleased someone is doing that.

well i did say
'Yeah legally true, but I do think the definition of rape should be extended to any non-consensual penetration.'
re the highlighted:
If it carries exactly the same penalties, then why not call it the same thing is my point.
Treating the penis as something special has been a problem, for centuries. I thought people were trying to get away from that.
EDIT:
re: the hacked off penis; what if i stick a plastic one on me then go do what rapists do....am I a rapist?

"no your honour, no penis was involved"

ridiculous.

 

[Rolfe]

well i did say
'Yeah legally true, but I do think the definition of rape should be extended to any non-consensual penetration.'
re the highlighted:
If it carries exactly the same penalties, then why not call it the same thing is my point.
Treating the penis as something special has been a problem, for centuries. I thought people were trying to get away from that.

Who are these "people", Kemo Sabe? It is a problem, and women are not particularly keen on minimising this. But this is going to develop into a derail so I suggest we park it.

 

[Belz...]

I believe women have been convicted as accessories to rape under circumstances similar to this. However, when we're talking about letting men into women's prisons this isn't really a super-relevant point.

No, not accessories. Women can force men into sex. Isn't that rape by any reasonable definition?

 

[TomB]

Since rape has become a topic, I search for "female rapists" and found this:

The results were surprising. For example, the CDC’s nationally representative data revealed that over one year, men and women were equally likely to experience nonconsensual sex, and most male victims reported female perpetrators. Over their lifetime, 79 percent of men who were “made to penetrate” someone else (a form of rape, in the view of most researchers) reported female perpetrators. Likewise, most men who experienced sexual coercion and unwanted sexual contact had female perpetrators.

--snip--

And, because we had previously shown that nearly one million incidents of sexual victimization happen in our nation’s prisons and jails each year, we knew that no analysis of sexual victimization in the U.S. would be complete without a look at sexual abuse happening behind bars. We found that, contrary to assumptions, the biggest threat to women serving time does not come from male corrections staff. Instead, female victims are more than three times as likely to experience sexual abuse by other women inmates than by male staff.

Also surprisingly, women inmates are more likely to be abused by other inmates than are male inmates, disrupting the long held view that sexual violence in prison is mainly about men assaulting men. In juvenile corrections facilities, female staff are also a much more significant threat than male staff; more than nine in ten juveniles who reported staff sexual victimization were abused by a woman.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

 

[Strawberry]

No, not accessories. Women can force men into sex. Isn't that rape by any reasonable definition?

Whether it is or not it is completely irrelevant to the subject of this thread. The reality is that it is men claiming to be women who are being moved to female prisons and sexually assaulting and harassing the women. It's not happening the other way around.

 

[Puppycow]

Not nearly as rare as it used to be and I think that is a big part of the issue. And you can't ignore the link between presenting as trans and problematic fetishistic or other sexual behaviour. Almost 50% of the transwomen in the British prison system are in there for sexual assault or rape.

Looking for info about this, I came across this article:

First UK transgender prison unit to open

The UK's first prison unit for transgender inmates will open this week, the Ministry of Justice has said.

The wing, within a women's prison in south London, will initially cater for three offenders.

Officials say the three prisoners, who have Gender Recognition Certificates, will not have access to the other women at HMP Downview, in Sutton.

The Ministry of Justice said prisoner safety was "our biggest concern".

Only three prisoners who have Gender Recognition Certificates? Officially, legally transgender, not simply "identifying" as such.

The move comes after the case of Karen White, a transgender prisoner, who sexually assaulted two women while on remand at New Hall jail in Wakefield.

White, who was born male and now identifies as a woman, was described by a judge as a "predator" who was a danger to women and children.

She was given a life sentence for sexual offences.

A Ministry of Justice spokesperson said: "Prisoner safety is our biggest concern and any decisions we take will seek to best manage the risks posed by each offender.

"The wider management of transgender offenders is a highly sensitive issue which poses unique and complex challenges and we are determined to get it right.

Not clear whether Karen White is among these three prisoners.

The number of transgender inmates in the prison system is hard to calculate and constantly changing.

But last August the BBC's Reality Check team said figures showed there were 17 in Scotland and 125 in England and Wales. No figures were given for Northern Ireland.

It's not clear to me whether those numbers only include those with GRCs, or whether it's a looser definition such as self-identification.

But apparently the solution that the prison system is favoring is to put transgender prisoners in a separate unit away from female prisoners.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Wait a minute...this is taking a tack that lacks any sort of logic.

Even assuming autogynaephilia, which you call a fetish, is behind transgenderism what does that have to do with being a sexual predator? If someone is sexually aroused by the thought of themelf as a woman, a lumberjack or a cabbage...so what?

Are you equating sexual fetishes with sexual violence? Because I don't think that is correct.

Granted there are harmful fetishes out there (voyeurism without consent, or fetishes that involve force, for example) but I think you need to provide some support to link a fetish involving perception of one's self to violence against another.

The idea is to throw as much **** as you can and see what sticks. They are perverts, dangerous, sick, mentally ill, whatever it takes to be allowed to discriminate against them. It's always been thus.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

If you read what I wrote, I was expanding the problem demographic to include men who are sexually problematic, but not necessarily committing sexual assaults as such. The behaviour of many autogynaephilic men in women's spaces is deeply problematic because they are using their ability to enter these spaces as "gender affirmation therapy". The whole thing is sexual with them.

Women do not want to share their spaces with men who are getting off on the whole experience of being in a women's space, wanking in the loos, peeing all over the toilet seat, rifling through the bins for used sanitary products and fantasising about helping a young girl insert a tampon. Even the ones who are doing no more than LARPing womanhood make women deeply uncomfortable.

You really need to stop talking for all women.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

It would be assault by penetration in both Scotland and England I believe. I appreciate different countries have different definitions but since we were specifically discussing the British prison establishment here I was of course working to British definitions of the crimes.

If you want to use legal definitions then people who have legally changed their gender from male to female are women. So stop calling them men.