Greta Thunberg - brave campaigner or deeply disturbed?

[theprestige]

This has become silly.

It's been silly all along. That's the point. You've been white knighting Greta Thunberg, like that's what matters.

The truth is that Donald Trump has probably done more for the cause than Greta ever will.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Oh I think guilt is at the heart of moral conduct. Truly. It is ultimately an intense sense of responsibility for our moral failures and motivator for remediating prior wrongs and not repeating them in the future.

I thought more about that after I posted it..

Guilt is why religious organizations rake in billions...

 

[theprestige]

Oh I think guilt is at the heart of moral conduct. Truly. It is ultimately an intense sense of responsibility for our moral failures and motivator for remediating prior wrongs and not repeating them in the future.

Is this, then, the source of the outrage? Some people aren't expressing suitable amounts of guilt? Saint Thunberg isn't inspiring the expected amount of religious conviction?

 

[Giordano]

Nope, no jokes. These kinds of conversations, the ones that say government has to solve climate change never get past the build more wind and solar stage.

What sort of actions to you suggest governments initiate to mitigate climate change. Other than build more wind and solar. keep in mind, we only have 11 years to get this done. Maybe less.

Really? I would need many pages to even begin. Tax high carbon fuels. Mandate mileage standards new cars. Enact appropriate energy standards for new and renovated buildings. Etc, etc. And be more aggressive about it than we have been.

Yeah, big changes are inevitable. But there are different sizes of big and the right actions can avoid ending up with an XXL size.

 

[luchog]

Sure, but luchog was quite rightly pointing out that it goes both ways. Melting ice both exposes land (inland) and drowns land (on the coast). I don't know whether the amounts balance out, but I suspect they do not.

It's not just the square footage that matters; the type of land that's in play is critically important.

Most of the land being exposed is marginal land, high-altitude, high-latitude land which is considerably less effective for farming than the low-lying river deltas and valleys which will be the first to flood.

 

[arthwollipot]

It's not just the square footage, but the type of land that's critically important.

Most of the land being exposed is marginal land, high-altitude, high-latitude land which is considerably less effective for farming than the low-lying river deltas and valleys which will be the first to flood.

Another very good point.

 

[cullennz]

This has become silly.

Why

I am being asked to have a guilt trip for catching the odd plane by virtue signalling climate angels on pedestals.

It is only fair we make sure they aren't being a tad hypocritical.

 

[Stout]

Really? I would need many pages to even begin. Tax high carbon fuels. Mandate mileage standards new cars. Enact appropriate energy standards for new and renovated buildings. Etc, etc. And be more aggressive about it than we have been.

Yeah, big changes are inevitable. But there are different sizes of big and the right actions can avoid ending up with an XXL size.

Well, if you think that those are the sorts of actions that will meet Thunberg's demands and time frame, I remain a little skeptical that they will be enough.

 

[Giordano]

Is this, then, the source of the outrage? Some people aren't expressing suitable amounts of guilt? Saint Thunberg isn't inspiring the expected amount of religious conviction?

These are my own thoughts about morality as a whole. And guilt is not owned by religions. I am an atheist myself.

I explained how I see guilt and responsibility as a core of our moral compasses. And yes, I think that too many people are not feeling appropriate responsibility/guilt as to their own contributions to climate change and therefore do not feel appropriate motivation to make changes in their own lives and to advocate societal changes to help reduce it. I don't want them to publically express guilt: just when appropriate, recognize their roles in their moral heart of hearts enough to do something about it.

 

[qayak]

No it isn't

My argument was I am not going to feel guilt tripped for catching a plane that was already going unless I am the one responsible for it having to fly

If your purpose is to do nothing about climate change that is the perfect argument. If your purpose is to do what you can you would not get on the plane. There are a finite number of resources. People who give a **** don't weigh that someone else will use them if they don't because that leads inevitably to taking as much as you can before anyone else can get it. That's conservative capitalism at its finest.

I know billions of people are still going to buy the products that keep the meat industry going. Regardless, I went with a plant based diet. I'm not going to eat more steak because no one else is slowing down and I am worried about my share.

 

[Giordano]

Why

I am being asked to have a guilt trip for catching the odd plane by virtue signalling climate angels on pedestals.

It is only fair we make sure they aren't being a tad hypocritical.

Guilt is not equal to guilt trip and I don’t see anyone claiming angel status here. But even believing as you claim - it’s your world too and it is going to hell. One can focus on slights and hypocrisy or focus on the problem and responding to it.

 

[qayak]

How many planes didn't fly the atlantic because Greta and her dad refused to take one?

Zero

How many people flew the atlantic because Greta and her dad refused to take one?

Six

Well, no. It was only 2 people** and they flew one way. Greta and her dad would have to fly both ways. Also, the "brilliant" reasoning on the ISF right now is: "Well, if the boat is going anyway . . .!" That boat isn't Greta's, she hitched a ride on it.

**- There are unconfirmed reports of two additional crew members flying to meet the boat.

 

[lionking]

Careful - one of you appears to be referring to sea ice, and the other to land ice. Melting land ice does indeed expose more land.

Not true. If the Greenland ice sheets completely melt, sea levels will rise by 7 meters, Greenland may have marginally more land, but virtually every coastal city will be underwater, as well as countless islands.

 

[cullennz]

Well, no. It was only 2 people** and they flew one way. Greta and her dad would have to fly both ways. Also, the "brilliant" reasoning on the ISF right now is: "Well, if the boat is going anyway . . .!" That boat isn't Greta's, she hitched a ride on it.

**- There are unconfirmed reports of two additional crew members flying to meet the boat.

It was 5 crew to bring it back and the captain flying home

 

[cullennz]

Actually apologies.

It might be 5 flights

Could be 4 crew there and the Hermann flying back

There was Hermann and another sailor, the Thunberg pair and a film maker to get there and the Hermann's spokesman said 5 sailors were bringing it back.

Hermann flew

So four flew to get it back with the dude who helped get it there

Depends whether the the other sailor flew back and they needed 5 to fly over or he sailed it back

https://taz.de/Thunbergs-Segelreise-in-die-USA/!5615733/

 

[Checkmite]

Also, the "brilliant" reasoning on the ISF right now is: "Well, if the boat is going anyway . . .!" That boat isn't Greta's, she hitched a ride on it.

She was offered a ride, and she took it.

I wonder how long after she disembarked she is going to continue to be held responsible for the boat owner's crew-logistics decisions which were made independently of her input.

 

[lionking]

She was offered a ride, and she took it.

I wonder how long after she disembarked she is going to continue to be held responsible for the boat owner's crew-logistics decisions which were made independently of her input.

Oh she will be blamed if the sun rises tomorrow. Particularly if she says, in her utterly annoying voice, “good morning”......

 

[cullennz]

Oh she will be blamed if the sun rises tomorrow. Particularly if she says, in her utterly annoying voice, “good morning”......

Blame?

It is just pointing out her carbon foot print is way bigger the way she chose to travel, than if her and her old man caught a stand by flight.

If this makes you uncomfortable, then that is your issue.

Who knows

Maybe she didn't ask how many flights would be involved. She is a child, and may not have thought about it.

 

[Giordano]

Blame?

It is just pointing out her carbon foot print is way bigger the way she chose to travel, than if her and her old man caught a stand by flight.

If this makes you uncomfortable, then that is your issue.

Who knows

Maybe she didn't ask how many flights would be involved. She is a child, and may not have thought about it.

One more try to get you to understand. She hitched a ride on a sailboat. No extra carbon footprint. She did not affect the owner's subsequent crewing of that boat for it's future voyages.

Whereas I've thought deeply about your concept that flying standby on a plane means one has zero carbon footprint because the plane was going to fly nonetheless. Somehow magically only the prior booked passengers incur a carbon footprint, rather than all share. Ultimately I find it curious, but not convincing. Particularly, as I noted upthread, lifting the extra passenger does cost some 20 to 30 extra liters of fuel per 1000 kilometers.

 

[lionking]

One more try to get you to understand. She hitched a ride on a sailboat. No extra carbon footprint. She did not affect the owner's subsequent crewing of that boat for it's future voyages.

Whereas I've thought deeply about your concept that flying standby on a plane means one has zero carbon footprint because the plane was going to fly nonetheless. Somehow magically only the prior booked passengers incur a carbon footprint, rather than all share. Ultimately I find it curious, but not convincing. Particularly, as I noted upthread, lifting the extra passenger does cost some 20 to 30 extra liters of fuel per 1000 kilometers.

It’s also quite possible to pay extra to offset carbon emissions, as I do. Sure, there is an argument that what you pay is not enough, but it’s something. Maybe she did, or whoever paid for her ticket did.

In any case this is a ridiculous sideshow. Some here are arguing that unless you live in a cave, off the grid, be a vegan, grow your own food and travel in electric vehicles you are a hypocrite and your comments can be safely dismissed. ******* idiocy.