Greta Thunberg - brave campaigner or deeply disturbed?

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https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31788-4/fulltext

I've already posted this several times.

You didn't read it then.

Why should I believe you're interested in reading it?

I read a couple pages worth, but it seems more about nutrition than not eating meat will have any major effect on climate change.

If there are actual figures, sumarising them in a couple of paragraphs would be nice.

It would be nice if all systems on the planet could be summarised in a few sentences.

The systems are all interconnected.

There are an incredible number of figures in the report text. The report lists 357 studies as references.

There are tables and charts in the report that spell out in figures things like projections on the impact of strategies, and the potential varying levels of success of them.

It would be nice if you could spend one night having a read and think, instead of directing your tunnel vision towards incredulously misinterpreting each statistic that is mentioned.
 
Something simpler.

"Meat and dairy, particularly from cows, have an outsize impact, with livestock accounting for around 14.5 percent of the world’s greenhouse gases each year. That’s roughly the same amount as the emissions from all the cars, trucks, airplanes and ships combined in the world today."

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/30/dining/climate-change-food-eating-habits.html

At this point, I'm expecting people in denial of their feelings of guilt to say something like, "Good, I'll just eat planes, then."
 
"Help, help, I and a bunch of others are drowning. And many of you guys are not only helping but you are throwing more water at us!"

"Oh shut up. We all know you are drowning already, you are not adding any more information! You are not proposing any new solutions. You are too young to tell me what to do. You are just angling for attention by all your flaying and guggling. And the pitch of your cries are irritating."
 
Something simpler.

"Meat and dairy, particularly from cows, have an outsize impact, with livestock accounting for around 14.5 percent of the world’s greenhouse gases each year. That’s roughly the same amount as the emissions from all the cars, trucks, airplanes and ships combined in the world today."

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/30/dining/climate-change-food-eating-habits.html

At this point, I'm expecting people in denial of their feelings of guilt to say something like, "Good, I'll just eat planes, then."


Are you saying I should give up meat while you keep your air travel?

Or else feel guilty?

I'm frankly astounded that the emissions from all the cars, trucks, airplanes and ships combined in the world today is only 14.5% of the world’s greenhouse gases ..

What is the other 85%?
 
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Careful now. Saying “it’s too late to do anything anyway” is a form denial. Saying “it’s doubtful we can actually stop it..” is damn close to that.

Science says we can do enough to mitigate the effects of climate change if governments rise to the challenge. This is what Greta is trying to encourage.


That's the real problem here. There is a lot that can be done to mitigate climate change, and if not stop or reverse it, then at least slow it considerably. If the governments of the countries responsible for the bulk of the contributions to climate change have the political will to act quickly enough and decisively enough.

And that, to me, is the crux of the problem. The deniers hold far more power than the rest of us at this point in time; and have demonstrated that they are willing to do whatever it takes to safeguard that power, including things as petty and childish as their personal attacks on activists like Thunberg. Money talks louder than anything else in the corridors of power, and the money is held by people and organizations who are profiting greatly from destroying the environment. So to say the battle the rest of us have to face is an uphill one is an understatement worthy of a British humourist.

Unless, of course, they can find a way to profit from switching sides; which, let's face it, ain't gonna happen.

The worst part of it all is that the people who hold the power, who move the money and understand how this all works, clearly know quite well that they're in the wrong, that climate change is real, and that it will have devastating consequences in the long term. But they Just. Don't. Care. Short time gain and gratification is the only thing they care about; because the worst of it won't really take full effect until they're dead and gone. And hey, who cares what happens to the world after you're dead, right?

Even if they do end up living through it, their control of the world's resources means that they'll be largely insulated from the consequences of climate change, while the rest of the world drowns or catches fire. Hell, the worse it is for the rest of us, the better it is for them, because people who are poor and starving are much easier to control and enslave. Just like they do in third-world sweatshops right now, but on a global scale. We'll be back to the days of the early Industrial Revolution and Robber Barons.

As much as I like to believe that people will come to their senses and work things out, the prevalence of denialism evidenced everywhere just doesn't make me terribly hopeful. I do think that when things finally get bad enough there's likely to be a large-scale uprising, which will sweep the majority of them from power, but by then it'll be too little too late.

Yes, some European countries are implementing polices, but they're often little more than tokens, and lack real muscle. China is reducing their emissions, but too slowly to make a substantial difference in the time needed. And the US is not only doing squat all on the national level; but is actively rolling back programs to limit not only greenhouse gas emissions, but even air and water quality standards, which have a much more immediate and tangible effect. And then there's Russia, which is pushing very hard to increase their carbon footprint, thanks to effectively being an oligarchy run like a criminal cartel.
 
Come on, I know you recognize that although serious climate change is inevitable it will be of different extent and speed depending what we do now. Is it crazy to initiate actions so that only one leg has to be amputated vs both plus an arm? Or were you trying to make a joke all 3 paragraphs?

Nope, no jokes. These kinds of conversations, the ones that say government has to solve climate change never get past the build more wind and solar stage.

What sort of actions to you suggest governments initiate to mitigate climate change. Other than build more wind and solar. keep in mind, we only have 11 years to get this done. Maybe less.
 
In thinking it over, I feel that a better response to climate change involves not only recognizing the problem but by first responding with a sense of guilt, "Oh my god, am I partly responsible for this? If so what can I do to help undo it?" Hell, some may be legitimately able to examine this question and say that they in their own life style didn't contribute - great! But most of us in the USA would have to answer yes and should feel enough guit to make changes in our lives. Amusingly a few relatively easy changes help quite a bit.

But people need to be motivated and guilt can be a wonderful motivator for the good. Thunberg seeks to make people feel responsible, to feel guilt.
 
Careful - one of you appears to be referring to sea ice, and the other to land ice. Melting land ice does indeed expose more land.


It also raises sea levels to... drown land.

But people need to be motivated and guilt can be a wonderful motivator for the good. Thunberg seeks to make people feel responsible, to feel guilt.


The problem is that for many, many people -- particularly those of a reactionary worldview -- their response to guilt is not to think "well, I should certainly do better", but to react violently against the source of that guilt. Hence the right's petty childish personal attacks against Greta.
 
Are you saying I should give up meat while you keep your air travel?

Or else feel guilty?

I'm frankly astounded that the emissions from all the cars, trucks, airplanes and ships combined in the world today is only 14.5% of the world’s greenhouse gases ..

What is the other 85%?

How about each of you, and I in my own pursuits, do each less and find some acceptable alternatives? Neither has to be given up entirely to help. The impact of most beef is much more than most chicken; eat less beef and more chicken (etc). Fly the minimum possible, seek airlines with more efficient planes, take trains if possible, etc.

My main point is one doesn't have to abandon everything one likes to make changes that do significantly reduce one's carnbon footprint.

BTW it's easy to find charts by Googling that break down the different sources of climate change gases. Some are surprising, such as the curing of cement.
 
I think guilt stops being a motivator after about the age of three or four,,,

After that, it's the bank account...

Oh I think guilt is at the heart of moral conduct. Truly. It is ultimately an intense sense of responsibility for our moral failures and motivator for remediating prior wrongs and not repeating them in the future.
 
Yes, I thought that would have been obvious. Different things happen in different places.
:rolleyes: Sure, but luchog was quite rightly pointing out that it goes both ways. Melting ice both exposes land (inland) and drowns land (on the coast). I don't know whether the amounts balance out, but I suspect they do not.
 
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