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Jeremy Bamber

It is curious that the case could devolve to matters as banal as phone logs to determine whether Jeremy Bamber engaged on a plan that no thinking man would hope to succeed in. If the phone logs prove he was where the police claim he was at different times there would be no debate, they would be unequivocal.

He didn't do it, he would have to have truly believed he could slaughter his family and then persuade his sister to pose gracefully in a suicide pose as he shot her, with her mother's body 6 feet away, leave no evidence and have not a scratch or forensic trail to implicate him.

It is ridiculous but not uncommon for police and prosecutors to get this sort of thing by dopey jurors and appeal court judges.
 
I must say I'm finding all of these possible phone calls confusing.

All, some or none of these might be confirmed by BT records, and the fact that it was possible to make one's own phone ring and answerphones can pick up calls does muddy the waters a lot.

3.00am or thereabouts: Jeremy to Julie Mugford
3.26: farmhouse to Jeremy's house
3.26: farmhouse to emergency services
3.37: Jeremy's house to non-emergency police number

Is that all of the calls that are alleged to have been made? Which if any of these calls are confirmed by BT records?
 
I must say I'm finding all of these possible phone calls confusing.

All, some or none of these might be confirmed by BT records, and the fact that it was possible to make one's own phone ring and answerphones can pick up calls does muddy the waters a lot.

3.00am or thereabouts: Jeremy to Julie Mugford
3.26: farmhouse to Jeremy's house
3.26: farmhouse to emergency services
3.37: Jeremy's house to non-emergency police number

Is that all of the calls that are alleged to have been made? Which if any of these calls are confirmed by BT records?

Hi Agatha,
With the reservation of not being entirely sure, I think your list of calls is correct. From the article concerning new proceedings it is revealed above (see my post on the 27th Oct @ 6.30) that the call by Nevill on your list was not made: "Bamber had argued two calls were made to police on the night of the murders, one from himself and another from his father, but the prosecution at his trial had alleged there was only one which was made by Bamber at 3.26am from the scene."
If I have it correct:
3.00 call uncontested
3.26 to farmhouse to cottage made but debated (as being from Jeremy not Nevill)
3.26 to emergency services by Nevill - said not to have happened. Now new evidence showing that it may well have happened.
3.37 No contest but said to be 'suspicious' because to local police.
What some of us are struggling with is whether the 'new' alleged confirmation of the previously denied 3.26 call (Nevill to police) was made points to innocence.
Without trying to be controversial, it suited the Crown case that the 3.26 call was not made - and would be no surprise if some police considered it should be hidden.

Cheers.
 
That's convenient. Having arrived at a scene of murder and mayhem, the relatives said to each other, 'Looks like Jezza is going to inherit the farm now both the parents are slain. Oh, no. I know, let's put a scratch on the mantlepiece and pin the murders on Jez. I never did like him anyway.'

Police were first to arrive at the crime scene. Don't think there is any debate about that so no suggestion they set the crime scene. No way of knowing when the scratched arrived, but it can be ascertained not to have happened as the result of the rifle being swung at Nevill as was the Crown's case. The reason for that, and I have seen the photo of the scratch is that the scratch can't have started from an edge in the joinery if swung in an arch. As for the silencer not to have been discovered by police results in requiring a leap of faith.

I'm fixing on points in continuity that are supported by a 2nd call which is how a Court would be expected to look at it - in isolation and then in continuity with other known facts. if the call becomes a likely fact - Jeremy could be declared not guilty BRD by a fresh jury.
 
I thought the first (alleged) call was from the farmhouse to Bamber's house. This was the pretext for Bamber to become concerned and to then call the police. Otherwise, how would he have known (per his version of events) that "Sheila was going berserk"? And how/why would Bamber have called the police at all that night, if he hadn't "found out" about what was happening at the farm? The police didn't call Bamber - he called them.

I think Bamber may well have thought about, and discounted, the idea of doing the shootings then just going quickly home and doing absolutely nothing until the next morning, whereupon, on the pretext of trundling over to the farm on a routine daytime casual visit, he would come upon the bloody scene. And I think he may have discounted that option on the grounds that this would be a more reasonable suspect, whereas if he called the police in "panic" and "concern" on the night he reasoned (IMO) that the police would probably never suspect that the true killer would have acted in that way.

IIRC there was also the matter of the phone being off the hook in the farmhouse, and Bamber telling police that his father either dropped the phone or had it knocked out of his hand, and after a while Bamber terminated the call at his end. But (again, if the above is correct) analogue residential lines at that time were controlled by the caller. If the caller neglected to terminate the call, the line to the called party stayed open, and there was nothing that the called party could do about it. The called party could not get a dial tone - they would have stayed connected to the calling party.

So if Bamber's version of events in respect of his father's phone call was to be believed, he should not have been able to make another outgoing call to the police 11-12 minutes later. What I think actually happened was that after placing the call to his own house from within the farmhouse (after having finished the murders, and on his way out), he put the phone handset back down onto the base (thus closing the line), but then thought it might look more authentic and dramatic if the phone were hanging off the hook, as if his father had had the phone knocked from his hand in a struggle.

Of course it's possible that, if that was what actually occurred (and presuming for a moment that Sheila was indeed the killer) that Sheila - having knocked the phone from her (much bigger and stronger...) father's hand, had had the wherewithall to depress the hook on the base unit with her hand in order to terminate the call and close the line. But then again, Bamber's version has his mentally-unstable sister going berserk in the house. Would someone in such a state really have been thinking clearly enough to depress the hook (while still not replacing the handset onto the base unit)?

All of this is impacted by the said information found on file of the 2nd 3.26 call. That is why it is important, it requires no assumptions as to what people believe other people thought.
 
he would have to have truly believed he could slaughter his family and then persuade his sister to pose gracefully in a suicide pose as he shot her, with her mother's body 6 feet away, leave no evidence and have not a scratch or forensic trail to implicate him.
Banner was, and remains, an egotistical psychopath who couldn't believe his plan would fail; he was unable to comprehend that he wasn't as intelligent as he thought. Hence he was caught and convicted.
Even the psychiatrist engaged by Bamber’s defence team diagnosed him as a psychopath.

:rolleyes:
 
Banner was, and remains, an egotistical psychopath who couldn't believe his plan would fail; he was unable to comprehend that he wasn't as intelligent as he thought. Hence he was caught and convicted.
Even the psychiatrist engaged by Bamber’s defence team diagnosed him as a psychopath.

:rolleyes:


That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

:rolleyes:
 
Banner was, and remains, an egotistical psychopath who couldn't believe his plan would fail; he was unable to comprehend that he wasn't as intelligent as he thought. Hence he was caught and convicted.
Even the psychiatrist engaged by Bamber’s defence team diagnosed him as a psychopath.

:rolleyes:

Could I trouble you for that report? We must deal with facts.
 
Hi Agatha,
With the reservation of not being entirely sure, I think your list of calls is correct. From the article concerning new proceedings it is revealed above (see my post on the 27th Oct @ 6.30) that the call by Nevill on your list was not made: "Bamber had argued two calls were made to police on the night of the murders, one from himself and another from his father, but the prosecution at his trial had alleged there was only one which was made by Bamber at 3.26am from the scene."
If I have it correct:
3.00 call uncontested
3.26 to farmhouse to cottage made but debated (as being from Jeremy not Nevill)
3.26 to emergency services by Nevill - said not to have happened. Now new evidence showing that it may well have happened.
3.37 No contest but said to be 'suspicious' because to local police.
What some of us are struggling with is whether the 'new' alleged confirmation of the previously denied 3.26 call (Nevill to police) was made points to innocence.
Without trying to be controversial, it suited the Crown case that the 3.26 call was not made - and would be no surprise if some police considered it should be hidden.

Cheers.

This is roughly the telephone sequence.


3:22am Control room

JB: You’ve got to help me, my father has just phoned me saying ‘please come over, your
sister has gone crazy and has the gun’ then the phone went dead. My father sounded
terrified, I don’t think he was kidding.

West: Where does your father live?

JB: White House farm Tolleshunt D'arcy.

West: Does your sister have access to any guns?

JB: Yes my father has a collection of 12 bores and 4.10s and .22 rifles. Look my sister has a
history of mental illness. You’ve got to help me.

West: Hold the line please, I’ll contact our information room and find out where the nearest
unit is.


3:26am Information room

"I received a telephone call on the internal line. The officer at the other end announced
himself as PC 1990 at Chelmsford.

Mr Bamber was worried about a phone call that he had received from his father at
Tolleshunt D'arcy. I cannot remember the direct speech that was used but I was informed
that the telephone call had been received from Mr Bamber and that Mr Bamber's daughter
had gone berserk and had taken one of his guns and that the line had gone dead.

PC 1990 also informed me that Mr BAMBER Junior had stated that there was a collection of
guns at the house. I recorded these as being Shotguns and 410's."


3:30am Witham Police Station

"About 03:30 am I was on duty at Witham Police Station in company Police Sergeant 36
BEWS and Police Constable 1509 MYALL. when I received a message over my personal radio,
from Chelmsford Police Station to the effect that a telephone call had been received from a
Mr Jeremy BAMBER, who had said that he had received a telephone call from his father Mr
Neville BAMBER of "White House Farm" Tolleshunt D'Arcy, saying that his sister was going
berserk and that she had a gun."


3:34am Control room

West: Hello

JB: Christ. You took a long time

West: I have contacted my Information room and Witham Police Station and a car is on its way
to your father's address at Tolleshunt D'Arcy. What's your father’s telephone number?

JB: Maldon 860204

West: How old is your father?

JB: Sixty two

West: Do you know who’s in the house?

JB: My father obviously , my mother and Sheila. Look, when my father rang me he sounded
terrified, I don’t think he's kidding about. I tried ringing him back and I can't get any reply.

West: Will you go to the house and wait for the Police officers and liaise with them there?

JB: Shall I go now?

West: Yes, the car from Witham won't take long. Can I have your telephone number?
JB: Goldhanger 88645


3:39am (or 3:19am)

JB: There’s something wrong at home. I don’t know what to do

Julie: Go to bed. bye honey

JB: I love you lots



3:35 - CA07 leaves Witham
3:41 - Jeremy leaves his house
3:47 - CA07 drives past Jeremy.
3:48 - CA07 arrives at White House Farm. Average journey speed 48mph
3:49 - Jeremy arrives at White House Farm. Average journey speed 31mph
 
Banner was, and remains, an egotistical psychopath who couldn't believe his plan would fail; he was unable to comprehend that he wasn't as intelligent as he thought. Hence he was caught and convicted.
Even the psychiatrist engaged by Bamber’s defence team diagnosed him as a psychopath.

:rolleyes:
That is, actually, a gratuitous assertion that is the complete opposite of the truth (AKA trolling).

He's been evaluated by at least three different psychologists over the years, one of whom interviewed him for many hours over a period of several weeks (after his conviction) and who came to the unequivocal conclusion that Bamber exhibited no antisocial personality traits whatever [ETA >> as did all the others].
 
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Does "dropped the ball" now mean "reached a conclusion I don't agree with"?

There was no ball to drop. The crime-scene was probably the most mis-handled one in the history of modern British crime, but even that couldn't disguise Bamber's guilt.
This. Not that his obvious guilt will stop the Usual Suspects from trying to drag their opinion on the imprisonment of the vicious psychopath Banner into this matter.
 
This. Not that his obvious guilt will stop the Usual Suspects from trying to drag their opinion on the imprisonment of the vicious psychopath Banner into this matter.
The indications are the commission Andrew Little is steering will eliminate the structural flaws built into the English model, that allowed for the atrocious miscarriage in Bamber to perpetuate.
 
The indications are the commission Andrew Little is steering will eliminate the structural flaws built into the English model, that allowed for the atrocious miscarriage in Bamber to perpetuate.



Samson: who in your opinion carried out all the murders in this case? Do you think the murderer also committed suicide within the farmhouse? And if so, how do you propose that this person committed suicide?
 
Samson: who in your opinion carried out all the murders in this case? Do you think the murderer also committed suicide within the farmhouse? And if so, how do you propose that this person committed suicide?
Elementary my dear Watson.
I have posted a few times how Sheila Caffell was confronted by June and Neville the simple notion that she should be relieved of all child caring duties.

Then they all ended dead in a few hours.

Just be patient for the perfectly true narrative. Jeremy Bamber is totally innocent and quite patient.

I bet both my arms Jeremy Bamber had nothing to do with these crimes that were capitilised by Anne Eaton.
 
Elementary my dear Watson.
I have posted a few times how Sheila Caffell was confronted by June and Neville the simple notion that she should be relieved of all child caring duties.

Then they all ended dead in a few hours.

Just be patient for the perfectly true narrative. Jeremy Bamber is totally innocent and quite patient.

I bet both my arms Jeremy Bamber had nothing to do with these crimes that were capitilised by Anne Eaton.



But you didn't really answer my questions:

1) Who, in your opinion, carried out these killings?

2) If the person in your answer to (1) was one of those found dead within the farmhouse, then exactly how did that person kill himself/herself?
 
It was Sheila Caffel.
She misaligned inflicted flesh wound then figured where her brain was located.
It is far more likely Amanda Knox is guilty it is incomprehensible to me how anyone on ISF can believe in this appalling hoax.
 
It was Sheila Caffel.
She misaligned inflicted flesh wound then figured where her brain was located.
It is far more likely Amanda Knox is guilty it is incomprehensible to me how anyone on ISF can believe in this appalling hoax.



So if it was Sheila Caffell......

..... one of the first questions to be addressed is: did she shoot everyone but herself with or without the silencer on the rifle? Because if she didn't, then whichever way round you order the killings, it's more-or-less impossible to conclude that some or all of the other family members would have woken with the sounds of the first shots in the sequence (an unsilenced .22 rifle, fired in a quiet house in the middle of the night, most certainly makes enough noise to travel through closed bedroom doors and induce a wake impulse).

Since June Bamber was out of her bed (but not by far) when she was shot, and Neville Bamber made it all the way downstairs, one might fairly guess - in a "Sheila did it, using an unsilenced rifle for all shots" scenario - that the children were shot first in their beds, and that June and Neville were woken by the shots. But there are big problems with that scenario. The biggest problem is related to the reloading of the rifle. Sheila would either have had to reload the rifle's magazine (for the first reload of two) in-between shooting the children and shooting June/Neville, or she'd have had to reload in the midst of the struggle with Neville. If the former, the elapsed time would raise issues just how and where June and Neville were confronted and shot; if the latter, Neville would almost-certainly have had enough time and ability to overpower Sheila. And that's before we even get to the fact that Sheila would have had to reload a second time at some point as well.....

But if Sheila did it, while using a silencer for all the shots except the two which she inflicted upon herself (which would, on the face of it, fit far better with the positions of the bodies etc), then one would have to explain why she would have removed the silencer from the gun, placed it downstairs in the box, then shot herself. If, when she came to take her own life at the end, she had realised that she couldn't place the gun under her chin and reach the trigger with the silencer attached (as was the case), then why would she not simply have unscrewed the silencer and left it lying beside her? What possible reason could there have been for her to have gone to the trouble of replacing it into the box downstairs?


There are several other important questions, but perhaps I'll bring up two related ones in respect of the alleged phone call which Jeremy says was made to his (Jeremy's) house by Neville in the middle of Sheila's rampage: firstly, why on Earth would Neville have called Jeremy rather than 999, given the murderous circumstances (and, for that matter, why would Jeremy himself not immediately have called 999 when he received this alleged call from his father?)?

And secondly, Jeremy claimed that his father was speaking to him and then "the line went dead". Now, since in this scenario the calling party was White House Farm, and the called party was Jeremy's house, only two things could in reality have happened from Jeremy's perspective: either 1) Jeremy heard some sort of scuffle/shots/etc, and then heard silence - but the line remained open; or 2) someone terminated the call at the White House Farm end (either by pulling out the phone line or by depressing the handset cradle), in which case the line would have been closed and Jeremy would have heard the dial tone. What he COULDN'T have heard was a "dead line". Furthermore (and very importantly), if the line hadn't been terminated at the White House Farm end (as in (2) above), and Jeremy hadn't therefore heard the dial tone, he wouldn't have been able to make an outgoing call himself for 10 minutes - in 1985, the exchange would only hand you back your line in this situation after 10 minutes had elapsed. So Jeremy would have been unable to call the local police station from his house at the time when he did make that call.



(FWIW, my own view is that Jeremy placed a call from White House Farm to his own house as the very last thing he did before leaving the murder scene - I doubt he knew whether or not call records would be kept (in the event, they were not kept in those days). I also suspect that Julie Mugford was much deeper into this than she ever admitted* - I suspect that she was sitting at his place ready to answer the phone when he called from the farm house, so that there was evidence of the call having been placed and answered. I think Jeremy probably hung up the phone at White House Farm after making this call - thereby freeing up the line at his own place - and then decided to "dress" the scene more dramatically by taking the phone back off the hook and leaving it dangling. He then cycled back as fast as he could to his own place, whereupon he sent Julie back to her place and called the local police station (not knowing that it was only his having initially replaced the handset at the farmhouse which had freed up his own line to make that call...))


* And of course when Mugford eventually went to the police, she would have known that she could easily protect herself against impeachment in this sort of way, since her only threat was of Jeremy telling police she was far more deeply implicated than she was pretending - and she knew that could never happen, because Jeremy would necessarily implicate himself totally if he did go down that route.
 

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