Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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BobTheCoward said:
Don't care.
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You don't appear to care about anything. It's like you've invented your own philosophy: pedantic nihilism. Nothing matters, but it's important for some reason to phrase the irrelevance of everything correctly.
 
Ziggurat said:
You don't appear to care about anything. It's like you've invented your own philosophy: pedantic nihilism. Nothing matters, but it's important for some reason to phrase the irrelevance of everything correctly.
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That is a good summation. I'm going to use that. I might modify it a bit.
 
Belz... said:
Seriously, guys?
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To try to de-Bob the thread a bit, something that's been brought up before is that some cases trying to hammer out agreed-upon definitions of 'man' and 'woman' can be irrelevant. If gate-keeping or discrimination (neither term used pejoratively) is being done based on biology or genetics then it doesn't matter if we allow the word 'woman' to be that circular 'anyone who identifies as a woman'.

And if I read it correctly that recent case involving waxing services used that sort of rationale. Without taking a stance on what constitutes a man or a woman, the businesses simply didn't perform their services on penises/scrota . Granting for the purposes of argument that a woman is anyone saying "I'm a woman", you still don't have to wax her balls.

Extending that to sport I'd think the principle would hold, but I'll confess even after having read all the detailed info offered up by others I still don't quite understand the genetics of things (biology and related were never my strong fields). Couldn't the statements be along the lines of "Fine, we'll grant you're a woman. You still can't compete in this category because of <biological reasons>"?
 
Meadmaker said:
Fascinating. You may be the only person on this forum, and darned few people in the world, who would share that particular combination of interests, and because of that, there is a question I have asked many times that I never get an answer to. Most people recognize it, quite correctly, as a ploy to support a position on the practical aspects of transgender issues but you, nearly alone of all people who discuss these issues, may be interested in the actual definition of "man" and "woman", as opposed to some practical aspect that a given definition would imply.

So, let me set up my question. First, I assume you understand what most of us mean by the following terms.

trans-man
cis-man
trans-woman
cis-woman.

Now, the question.

Do you have a definition of "woman" that meets all of the following criteria
1. The definition includes all cis-women.
2. The definition includes all trans-women.
3. The definition excludes all trans men
4. The definition is not circular.
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You want to have real fun just try to come up with absolute definitions that define everyone as male or female and have one not just be "isn't the other" and properly fits how we consider those with intersex conditions.

There was an article from a cis(?) woman who was born with out a vagina or uterus. How does this person fit in your proposed classification scheme?
 
ponderingturtle said:
You want to have real fun just try to come up with absolute definitions that define everyone as male or female and have one not just be "isn't the other" and properly fits how we consider those with intersex conditions.

There was an article from a cis(?) woman who was born with out a vagina or uterus. How does this person fit in your proposed classification scheme?
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One option would be to simply exclude that author from most things. Other than not wanting to and being possibly illegal (both things that can be changed) I'm not sure of another issue with it.
 
BobTheCoward said:
It is whatever the person claiming to be one wants it to be
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Ahhh, ok. I guess that is what you meant about the metaphysics of language. I did pretty well in physics classes, but I was afraid to take classes that dealt with metaphysics. I was afraid I would get a low grade. All the people talking about it sounded like they were talking gibberish to me.

So, I skipped those classes and graduated first in my class at MIT, for my definition of "first" and "MIT".

TTFN.
 
Joe Random said:
"Fine, we'll grant you're a woman. You still can't compete in this category because of <biological reasons>"?
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Precisely, yes. This is why I've noted there are sports leagues set apart for "people who have [never] undergone the virilizing effects of endogenous testosterone," rather than using the usual shorthand of "women's sport."
 
Belz... said:
Completely irrelevant.
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I have met a person that is a fan of team X because their spouse is. They don't watch the games, hate the sport, and have a poor grasp of the rules. But there is a lack of dispute on her team allegiance.
 
BobTheCoward said:
I have met a person that is a fan of team X because their spouse is. They don't watch the games, hate the sport, and have a poor grasp of the rules. But there is a lack of dispute on her team allegiance.
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And how do you determine if they're a fan: by their claim, or the contradictory evidence you can observe?
 
d4m10n said:
Precisely, yes. This is why I've noted there are sports leagues set apart for "people who have [never] undergone the virilizing effects of endogenous testosterone," rather than using the usual shorthand of "women's sport."
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Or exogenous testosterone come to that. Except then you run into the problem of HAC. And of puberty-blocked males who nevertheless still have an advantage over females because of their male body structure.

It's never simple when you concede the point on re-defining a word which is central to the language.
 
Belz... said:
Of course there does. Everything real has real effects. We call that evidence.
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But no level of disinterest that removes the title of fan. Apathetic fans get to still be fans.

ETA: casual men and women could be an another term. Fair weather man, maybe
 
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