Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

[Scorpion]

Please give me an example of what would be considered a spirit directly interfering with a person's karma.

Spirits might try to influence people not to make certain choices, by the still small inner voice we call conscience. But if the person does not listen to their conscience, there is nothing the spirit world can do.

 

[Gamolon]

Which is to choose our own path through the world

I believe they try to inspire people by telepathy, and often succeed in planting ideas in peoples heads even though those people think the ideas were their own.

How is a spirit planting ideas in someone's head and letting them think they came up with them considered the same as letting us choose our own path?

 

[Gamolon]

Spirits might try to influence people not to make certain choices, by the still small inner voice we call conscience. But if the person does not listen to their conscience, there is nothing the spirit world can do.

That's not what I asked you Scorpion.

Please give me an example of what would be considered a spirit directly interfering with a person's karma.

 

[Scorpion]

Are mediums infallible? Do they ever provide incorrect information?

Yes they do sometimes provide untrue information. Trevor Williams the medium, told me to take much of what I was told by mediums with a pinch of salt.

 

[Scorpion]

That's not what I asked you Scorpion.

Please give me an example of what would be considered a spirit directly interfering with a person's karma.

I cannot speak for the angels of karma. It is up to them what is permitted and what is not.

 

[Steve]

How is a spirit planting ideas in someone's head and letting them think they came up with them considered the same as letting us choose our own path?

Like so many things, you get to choose as long as it is the choice someone (something?) else wants you to make.

 

[JayUtah]

Spirits might try to influence people not to make certain choices, by the still small inner voice we call conscience.

But in your case the spirits have made their presence known in ways you argue are unmistakable. They have revealed the spirit world to you in all its ad hoc glory. Do you argue that this has had no effect on your karma?

 

[JayUtah]

I cannot speak for the angels of karma. It is up to them what is permitted and what is not.

Or, in other words, now that you're backed into a corner you punt and say you really don't know how things work. This is unsatisfactory. You have explained various anecdotes by saying that's how the rules of the spirit world work. You have deflected the hypothetical situations we have posed to test your claims by similarly claiming that the rules of the afterlife do not allow it. Now you're trying to tell us that there are no extrinsic rules and that what goes in the spirit world is up to the whims of beings you've further invented.

You and your mediums either know how things work in the spirit world or you don't. Which is it?

 

[JayUtah]

Yes they do sometimes provide untrue information. Trevor Williams the medium, told me to take much of what I was told by mediums with a pinch of salt.

Then why do you refuse to do so? When faced with facts that dispute the supernatural claims you attribute to the spirit world, you say you dismiss those facts and retreat to a set of core beliefs. When asked where those core beliefs come from, you say mediums told you. You don't take mediums with a pinch of salt -- you cling tenaciously to them like a drowning man to a lifeline.

Reconcile your statements with your behavior, if you please.

 

[Scorpion]

But in your case the spirits have made their presence known in ways you argue are unmistakable. They have revealed the spirit world to you in all its ad hoc glory. Do you argue that this has had no effect on your karma?

I got schizophrenia didn't I. They did not save me from that. But afterwards, when I went to church seeking healing and comfort they helped me. The knowledge I acquired mitigated my suffering, and that they clearly allowed.

I do not know what effect that had on my karma. I think if the spirits can save people from suffering, and still stay within the laws of karma they will do it.

 

[JayUtah]

I do not know what effect that had on my karma.

So you don't know whether they interfered with your karma or not? Is that a fair statement?

 

[Scorpion]

You and your mediums either know how things work in the spirit world or you don't. Which is it?

I remember a medium in a trance speaking about this and she said.

Some of you say you know the laws of the spirit, but it is how you live that shows if you know the laws.

 

[Gamolon]

I cannot speak for the angels of karma. It is up to them what is permitted and what is not.

You can't speak for them eh?

The spirit world are not allowed to directly interfere with peoples karma, but they do all they can to help within limits.

It is up to the hierarchy of the spirit world to decide what is allowed and what is not. They allow subtle help but not direct interference .

The spirit world do not want or intend to give absolute proof of their existence to the people of this world. Because that would defeat the very object of incarnation.

They are not concerned if that experience is harsh as they know it will all be for the ultimate good.

The spirits will never give me all the lottery numbers because it would be bad karma. Even if I gave most of the money to charities I would still be depriving the people who would have won that money. That kind of personal gain is against the rules of the occult.

 

[JayUtah]

I remember a medium in a trance speaking about this and she said.

Some of you say you know the laws of the spirit, but it is how you live that shows if you know the laws.

That utterly failed to answer my question. Try again.

 

[Scorpion]

So you don't know whether they interfered with your karma or not? Is that a fair statement?

I don't think they did because I still got my share of crap in this world. But the healing and help I have received was clearly permitted without breaking the laws. It has been said you can work off your karma by other methods than just suffering. Maybe that is what I am trying to do by talking about spiritualism all over the internet, and maybe that is why the spirit world were allowed to give me the money to buy a computer. It is because they knew I would try to do this.

 

[JayUtah]

I don't think they did because I still got my share of crap in this world.

But how you deal with it depends on your knowledge of the spirit world. You told us that the spirit world kept itself hidden so that those who weren't ready to be held accountable for knowledge of it wouldn't have the consequences of their infirmities and weaknesses result in karma.

The question is one of effect at all, not the alleged direction of the effect. Answer the questions I ask, not other ones that are easier for you to answer.

But the healing and help I have received was clearly permitted without breaking the laws. It ha

Circular reasoning.

It is because they knew I would try to do this.

More circular reasoning.

Try again.

 

[JayUtah]

[duplicate deleted]

 

[JayUtah]

You can't speak for them eh?

Indeed, he's spent the last few pages -- and quite a bit of time during his overall sojourn -- telling us how the spirit world works. It's only lately that he's run into difficulty applying the rules to obvious hypotheticals and reconciling the obvious contradictions between his statements. So only lately has he retreated to the position that some cabal of inscrutable angels simply make up the rules as they go, that mediums might be fake, and that even the real mediums may not know what they're talking about. Which naturally includes the proposition that they don't know what they're talking about when they tell us about the whims of "karma angels."

And somehow this is all better than science.

 

[Gamolon]

I think if the spirits can save people from suffering, and still stay within the laws of karma they will do it.

But suffering is part of spiritual evolution right Scorpion? Isn't that what you said? Don't the Angels of Karma decide what is best for the evolution of a spirit by hand picking an incarnation with the experiences (good and bad) that the Angel thinks the spirit needs to evolve further?

So now you're suggesting that there are spirits that are saving other spirits in their current incarnations from suffering? This same suffering that the Angels of Karma knew that these spirits needed to evolve?

Are you saying that the Angels of Karma don't know what they are doing and prescribe an incarnation for a spirit that has too MUCH suffering and don't realize it, but these rogue spirits do?

Explain this please.

 

[JayUtah]

Suffering = the deserved effects of karma
Suffering = the undeserved means of spiritually evolving
Suffering = an unfortunate inevitable consequence, that spirits alleviate

See, this is what happens when Victorian ne'er-do-wells try to smoosh together a poorly understood abstraction of the dhamric Eastern religions with vestiges of Protestant Christianity and make something that appeals to those disaffected from the latter but not entirely willing to plunge into the former. The Victorians were never able to resolve the inherent conflicts either. Specifically there was never a plausible reconciliation of the one-time-through process of incarnation and the multiple-trips-through-the-salad-bar process of reincarnation. Borrowing a little from each clearly doesn't fix the problem.