Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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Rolfe said:
I think Fu(?) being the only biological female of the four is even more obvious in that photo, but it hardly matters. (I wonder how long it took Yang to grow his hair that long?)
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So you're pretty sure that international sports bodies don't actually verify these things?
 
Sherkeu said:
Looks like they are indeed female. ...snip... I think looking this way naturally would be a rarity.
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I'm not commenting on the individuals under scrutiny here but top athletes are pretty much by definition a rarity, regardless of sex, including physically.
 
Puppycow said:
So you're pretty sure that international sports bodies don't actually verify these things?
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The entire thing could be a wind-up. But no, the international sports bodies are a complete mess on this subject at the moment. Essentially anyone recognised by their home country as female is accepted as being female, at least until questions start being asked about whether they're transwomen or possibly intersex, individuals subject to specific regulations.
 
Rolfe said:
The title of his doctoral thesis is something like "Why you don't have to know what you're talking about". I kid you not.
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https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/handle/10012/6619

"Reasonable Assertions: On Norms of Assertion and Why You Don't Need to Know What You're Talking About"

I didn't read the whole paper, but I think the point of the "Don't Need to Know What You're Talking About" is that it's reasonable to make an assertion even if you have not verified the truth of that assertion, so long as you have good reason to believe in the truth of the assertion.


I've actually read a whole lot of variations on that very argument right here on the pages at ISF/JREF, but the posters here didn't get PhDs.
 
Thanks. I'd lost the tweet where someone posted an image of the title page. It was part of a series of tweets demonstrating that McKinnon was lying about having met the 2003 criteria to compete as a woman. The date of the thesis was part of the argument, and then the title generated some serious hilarity.

I'm in no position to complain about people using the title Dr when they have a PhD. It's what the title is for and medics use it by courtesy only, at least in this country. And I've used the title since the day I got word my thesis had passed. I do complain about the absolute garbage rubbish people are being awarded PhDs for though.
 
Meadmaker said:
https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/handle/10012/6619

"Reasonable Assertions: On Norms of Assertion and Why You Don't Need to Know What You're Talking About"

I didn't read the whole paper, but I think the point of the "Don't Need to Know What You're Talking About" is that it's reasonable to make an assertion even if you have not verified the truth of that assertion, so long as you have good reason to believe in the truth of the assertion.


I've actually read a whole lot of variations on that very argument right here on the pages at ISF/JREF, but the posters here didn't get PhDs.
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And my lack of agreement with that position is why I answer a lot of questions stating I don't have an opinion.
 
Rolfe said:
The entire thing could be a wind-up. But no, the international sports bodies are a complete mess on this subject at the moment. Essentially anyone recognised by their home country as female is accepted as being female, at least until questions start being asked about whether they're transwomen or possibly intersex, individuals subject to specific regulations.
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Is a non-surgical transman who claims female and tests under the testosterone limit ok to compete with other females?

e.g. What would you get if you transitioned girls at the start of puberty (9-12yo) instead of just blocking it and/or waiting til 16/18? Wouldn't you get a strong expression of all the 'advantageous' secondary male characteristics in an otherwise perfectly normal genetic female? Wouldn't many of those, like bone structure and lung capacity, be permanent?

I honestly don't know since it doesnt seem to be done openly anywhere at such young ages.

The closest examples I can find are all dated from the doping programs of the eastern bloc countries decades ago that created so many gold medal winners.
 
Sherkeu said:
Is a non-surgical transman who claims female and tests under the testosterone limit ok to compete with other females?
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I don't know for sure because pretty much everything we read is geared to presenting the trans pressure group of AGP males with everything they want and females seldom get a mention. However the situation would be an absolute analogue of the doping programmes you mentioned below so I doubt it would be allowed.

At the moment we have the bizarre situation that men are allowed in women's events if they reduce their testosterone concentration below 10 nmol/l (that's huge, and it may be reduced to 5 nmol/l which is just very high, for a woman), however women competing in the same events are not allowed to dope up to the level the men are allowed to have. This would seem to exclude your transman scenario however in the crazy world of identity politics, who knows.

Sherkeu said:
e.g. What would you get if you transitioned girls at the start of puberty (9-12yo) instead of just blocking it and/or waiting til 16/18? Wouldn't you get a strong expression of all the 'advantageous' secondary male characteristics in an otherwise perfectly normal genetic female? Wouldn't many of those, like bone structure and lung capacity, be permanent?

I honestly don't know since it doesnt seem to be done openly anywhere at such young ages.
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I really don't think you'd get anything much like a real male. It's not just testosterone, there are other factors in play. I think you'd get an enhanced female who is still not competitive with males. I think there has been some investigation into puberty-blocked boys who move straight on to female hormones without going through normal male puberty, and they out-performed girls of the same age quite significantly.

Sherkeu said:
The closest examples I can find are all dated from the doping programs of the eastern bloc countries decades ago that created so many gold medal winners.
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We're very close to the athletics authorities pretty much conceding that that was all OK and they really shouldn't have penalised anyone for it!

Take a look at this. Yes, I know it's the DM but just read it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ale-sports-events-without-medical-checks.html

Basically the trans advocates are now employing the logic that says that your sex has nothing to do with your biology, it's all how you "feel", and men who feel female (whatever that means) are just as much female as biological females (whatever that means). Therefore these men are part of the female "reference values" pool and it's transphobic to suggest they should have to do anything at all to be accepted as real women, including compete in women's athletics without doing anything to their bodies.

I suppose there's one consolation, that the madder this gets the closer we are to the point where the majority of the population who know this is mad when they find out about it rises up and says "no more". Fathers of athletic girls are turning into quite an asset.
 
d4m10n said:
Sort of begs the question about crime stats...

https://twitter.com/Carmen85196994/status/1188089363982368775
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Well, yes. It just goes on getting crazier. Canada, you may be doing us all a favour here.

I note the most vocal proponents of TWAW and if you don't absolutely agree that they're really biologically female and have every right a woman has (and anyway you uppity women have far too many rights already and need to have some removed) seem to have wandered off, at least for the moment. Maybe they'll be back any moment to tell us that the "she" in that article is as much a woman as the women "she" is sexually harrassing and how dare we imply "she" should be in a male prison, and how it's absolutely OK for men to compete against women without altering their bodies at all. I wait with breathless anticipation.
 
Rolfe said:
Well, yes. It just goes on getting crazier. Canada, you may be doing us all a favour here.

I note the most vocal proponents of TWAW and if you don't absolutely agree that they're really biologically female and have every right a woman has (and anyway you uppity women have far too many rights already and need to have some removed) seem to have wandered off, at least for the moment. Maybe they'll be back any moment to tell us that the "she" in that article is as much a woman as the women "she" is sexually harrassing and how dare we imply "she" should be in a male prison, and how it's absolutely OK for men to compete against women without altering their bodies at all. I wait with breathless anticipation.
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It isn't men altering their bodies. It is women bodies regardless.
 
Rolfe said:
Well, yes. It just goes on getting crazier. Canada, you may be doing us all a favour here.

I note the most vocal proponents of TWAW and if you don't absolutely agree that they're really biologically female and have every right a woman has (and anyway you uppity women have far too many rights already and need to have some removed) seem to have wandered off, at least for the moment. Maybe they'll be back any moment to tell us that the "she" in that article is as much a woman as the women "she" is sexually harrassing and how dare we imply "she" should be in a male prison, and how it's absolutely OK for men to compete against women without altering their bodies at all. I wait with breathless anticipation.
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I think it's too late unfortunately, women's sports are already gone. Women's prisons might be saved if a class action lawsuit against the government forces them to rethink, but sports are already lost.

The only way for women and girls to play sports on a level playing field now is to start from scratch and build their own sporting leagues all over again, just like they had to do a century or so ago.
 
BobTheCoward said:
It isn't men altering their bodies. It is women bodies regardless.
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Rolfe has said, many times, that she is referring to the sex, not gender, of the people involved, and given a very clear biological definition of what she is talking about.

It's pretty clear that it is men altering their bodies that she is talking about.
 
Strawberry said:
I think it's too late unfortunately, women's sports are already gone. Women's prisons might be saved if a class action lawsuit against the government forces them to rethink, but sports are already lost.

The only way for women and girls to play sports on a level playing field now is to start from scratch and build their own sporting leagues all over again, just like they had to do a century or so ago.
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On that last, how do you actually do that? If it's not possible to segregate anything by biological sex, legally, then all that will happen is that the autogynies desperate for their validation as "real women" will simply invade the new league too. If you can't even have a women-only rape crisis shelter, how the hell do you manage a women-only athletics league?
 
Rolfe said:
On that last, how do you actually do that? If it's not possible to segregate anything by biological sex, legally, then all that will happen is that the autogynies desperate for their validation as "real women" will simply invade the new league too. If you can't even have a women-only rape crisis shelter, how the hell do you manage a women-only athletics league?
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Maybe this is one of the rare cases where Semtex is necessary?

Rhys McKinnon is not going to be told that his woman face is unacceptable by any other means, imo.
 
Strawberry said:
I think it's too late unfortunately, women's sports are already gone. Women's prisons might be saved if a class action lawsuit against the government forces them to rethink, but sports are already lost.



The only way for women and girls to play sports on a level playing field now is to start from scratch and build their own sporting leagues all over again, just like they had to do a century or so ago.
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Womens sports "already gone", sorry but that is just silliness. Even me with absolutely no interest in sports at all knows that female sports is thriving as never before.
 
Darat said:
Womens sports "already gone", sorry but that is just silliness. Even me with absolutely no interest in sports at all knows that female sports is thriving as never before.
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Thriving is it? *Sigh*

The invisible women and girls who silently drop out of sports aren't thriving. It's about time women turned nasty, imo.
 
Roboramma said:
Rolfe has said, many times, that she is referring to the sex, not gender, of the people involved, and given a very clear biological definition of what she is talking about.

It's pretty clear that it is men altering their bodies that she is talking about.
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Strongly disagree.
 
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