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Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

And yet you are prepared to spend money on an electric shock machine to cure a problem you can't prove even exists, and which didn't work anyway.
Funny, that. :rolleyes:

ETA: If ever there was another time for the spirits to give you lottery numbers, this would be it.

I think the spirits gave me a lottery win to buy a computer, but they will not do it again because it would be bad karma to give me a big win. In any case I am comfortably off now because an uncle left me some money.

I remember the spiritualist medium Ursula Roberts said that ECT (electro convulsive therapy) can clear the aura of entities, because they feel electricity as fire. But I was attempting to use static electricity, which is safer.
 
Which means that information is in the public domain, so would have been easily obtainable by the senior members of your spiritualist church. I doubt either they, or the medium to whom they fed the information, would have had the slightest difficulty justifying doing so to themselves. They would probably have thought they were helping you by encouraging your faith.

This was in the early 1970's before computers and the internet. It would have been quite difficult to find this information.
 
This was in the early 1970's before computers and the internet. It would have been quite difficult to find this information.
No, it really wouldn't. People were obtaining such information long before the internet. It was all stored at Somerset House, you just had to ask.
 
Scorpion, as I've explained to you before, there's a free, easy to access register that lists all births, marriages and deaths in the UK. It's online now but prior to the internet you just had to go to any library. The "medium" and her associates will have researched every single member of the congregation of the church you attended, including you. Because that's what they do.

You don't even have to leave the comfort of your own home to find a VAST amount of information about other people. Membership of a family history site gives me access to every UK census from 1841 to 1911, the births/marriages/deaths index, the 1939 UK Registration Index, parish records, other family trees (many of which contain very recent info and photographs) and lots of other stuff. I also subscribe to the British Newspaper Archive, which is also a fantastic source of information.
 
No, it really wouldn't. People were obtaining such information long before the internet. It was all stored at Somerset House, you just had to ask.

Indeed. I worked my way through school, early on, as an academic librarian. This was in the 1980s. Certainly the internet has revolutionized how we research, but it's sheer nonsense to claim that no one could do genealogy-type research prior to it. Heck, the Mormons have been doing it for many decades as a systematic pursuit. For example, they funded and staffed extensive efforts to put local records on microform, starting way back in the 1960s.

Scorpion, it's time to stand up and be counted. You are so very easily able to believe a person can do extraordinary things like talk to the spirits of the dead, but you are utterly unable to grasp how people can do extraordinary (but natural) things like deep library research. You are not a seeker of truth. You are defender of mediums.
 
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I may send for a copy, but I am in no rush to pay money. I tried to find out all I could for free, and I found his name and the place and date of his death. But everyone wants a credit card number for more information.

I'm sorry it costs money. Here (in the U.S.) it costs money too, and because of privacy laws you have to demonstrate a need for the information unless the records are very old.

Go find your local Mormon church and tell them you're doing genealogy research -- which isn't at all a lie. You're well armed with a name and birth date and place. Chances are they microformed the parish (or whatever) records long ago and have a separate record of it they'll let you examine and photocopy or print out for free.

In any case I believe my mother...

I've given you reasons why your mother's story is implausible. Part of "re-evaluating" your beliefs, as you say you do, would be to weigh those reasons with the reasons why you hold your beliefs. "I believe my mother" is not good enough to convince other people you've evaluated this story critically and that it therefore constitutes solid evidence of a true medium.

...and the certificate will not say there were no oxygen tents. It will probably say he died of respiratory failure, or something like that.

I am prepared to believe that's substantially what it will say. I doubt that any public registrar believes it his duty to go into that much detail regarding cause of death and all the reasons behind it. My father's death certificate simply lists "complications from leukemia," and that's not even especially medically accurate since his official diagnosis was acute myelodysplastic syndrom (what Carl Sagan died of).

But that's not the point. The point is how much detail someone can have gleaned from a public record and what one can infer from it. Simple arithmetic tells her he died at a very tender age. Cause of death informs her there may have been some element of tragedy to it, and therefore ripe pickings for a reading the subject will have strong feelings about. As Pixel42 has said, this may all actually have been researched by the local leaders of your church. And then when the medium shows up, they say to her, "Scorpion, that quiet kid in the back, had an infant brother who died in the war. I'll bet he would be very happy and relieved if you were able to contact him." And no, that's not too far a length to go for a church centered on communicating with the dead. That would be their stock in trade.

The medium, according to you, mentioned only "equipment." You don't remember enough of the reading to be sure any specific kind of hospital equipment was mentioned. According to you, it was your mother who identified it as "oxygen tents." (No, we're not done with that.) And now you seem to have credited that back to the medium, such that you're wondering whether she could have gleaned it from the death certificate. She didn't glean it at all. From the basic arithmetic showing he died in infancy, to the cause of death being (provisionally) "respiratory failure," to the place of death being (hypothetically) "St. Duodenum's Hospital" during wartime, it's not hard to go out on a limb and say that equipment shortage contributed to the unfortunate and untimely passing of a distressed infant. See what happened there? The medium made a vague inference, and your mother -- who had the actual knowledge -- is the one who focused it down to a specific claim. That's not a miracle on the part of the medium. That's just how all mediums work, whether they admit being fake or not.

Okay, back to oxygen tents. Yes, I just improvised one in my house yesterday using only equipment on hand -- a card table, a wet bedsheet, and a tank of oxygen that i use for welding. I got a 32-percent oxygen concentration (and rising) before I stopped the experiment for safety reasons. And I'm not even running a hospital. Not that I would trust an infant's survival to it, but if it's all I had then I would certainly give it a try.

The real issue here is that the exact type of equipment that allegedly lacked, according to your story, is not an important detail. Your mother, recounting the incident some 30 years after it happened, might simply have misremembered it. Or she might have been told the wrong thing by the attending nurses. Quite a number of explanations come to mind that could answer the implausibility of the story as you tell it, yet still let you believe that the medium supernaturally came to know your brother died for want of "equipment."

So the implication is why you're reluctant to question even the tiniest details of the stories you tell here. Even on relatively insignificant matters you dig in your heels and insist that your beliefs must be true to the letter and that you cannot possibly be mistaken. Acknowledging that the equipment in question was probably not something the doctors could have effortlessly improvised would make your story more credible according to the facts. But instead you err on the side of refusing to grant skeptics even the smallest quarter. You won't allow them to win even a small victory in principle.

Far from being a seeker of truth, or even a defender of mediums, your approach seems more consistent with a rattler of cages for some reinforcement of ego. If we put this into the context of all the threads you've abandoned and pretend don't exist anymore, the picture emerges of someone trying so very hard to show how his mode of thinking is so much better than skepticism, and failing spectacularly. You can't bring yourself to say, "Okay, you guys may be right about the oxygen tents; that's one detail someone along the way got wrong." It's you who's nit-picking the details, not us.
 
Scorpion, it's time to stand up and be counted. You are so very easily able to believe a person can do extraordinary things like talk to the spirits of the dead, but you are utterly unable to grasp how people can do extraordinary (but natural) things like deep library research. You are not a seeker of truth. You are defender of mediums.

I still believe the medium was genuine and I got a message from my dead brother. I do not believe any church official went to the trouble of researching my family, just for the few shillings I put in the collection plate.

Besides I was something of an insider in the church because I sat in a psychic developing circle organised by a friend of mine who was another member of the church about my age. He led the circle every week, and I watched him develop into a medium in front of my eyes. I believe he is still a practicing medium, and his name is Trevor Williams.

I have said there are only a handful of things I am sure of but they are enough to convince me there is a psychic reality. I consider it 80 or 90 % probable that the medium who told me about my brother was doing what she said she was doing and speaking to his departed spirit.

I am however one hundred percent sure that a voice told me I would win on the lottery, and I am just as certain a friend of mine knew I was in trouble by telepathy or esp.

There are also a number of other evidential messages I received from mediums over the years that convinced me some were genuine.
 
Besides I was something of an insider in the church...

No. Earlier you claimed you were just a quet attendee that wasn't worth anyone's attention. When you keep changing your story to accommodate new facts, this is pretty much all the proof we need that you have no intention of looking critically at your own claims.

There are also a number of other...

No Gish gallop. Stay on target.
 
The point is how much detail someone can have gleaned from a public record and what one can infer from it.

I doubt that would have been necessary, I think it's far more likely that someone in the congregation knew about it and mentioned it at some point and it was noted down for future use. As has been noted several times just because something isn't spoken about within the family doesn't mean other people don't talk about it, and if you're fishing for information about who's related to which dead relative there are certain advantages to the tendency for church attendees to be on the older side..
 
Then who nursed it afterward. while she worked?



So if you don't know all the details of how she had the baby and who nursed it, how can you be so sure there was no way for your "true medium" to have found out about it?

She nursed it, So to not draw suspicion she disguised the baby as a newspaper.

She was a wiley one.
 
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I think the spirits gave me a lottery win to buy a computer, but they will not do it again because it would be bad karma to give me a big win. In any case I am comfortably off now because an uncle left me some money.

I remember the spiritualist medium Ursula Roberts said that ECT (electro convulsive therapy) can clear the aura of entities, because they feel electricity as fire. But I was attempting to use static electricity, which is safer.

Pssst....... it was to buy a computer and pay off your credit card.
 
I doubt that would have been necessary, I think it's far more likely that someone in the congregation knew about it and mentioned it at some point and it was noted down for future use. As has been noted several times just because something isn't spoken about within the family doesn't mean other people don't talk about it, and if you're fishing for information about who's related to which dead relative there are certain advantages to the tendency for church attendees to be on the older side..

No argument from me. I championed that very concept a few pages back. What I'm trying to do here is account for different temperatures of reading. We know that hot reading, where possible, produces the most convincing results. But since we ultimately do not -- and cannot -- know the facts in this case, we have to reason about how warm a cold reading would have to be in this case in order to parsimoniously account for all the facts. If the medium hears about Scorpion's case from a member of the congregation, volunteered upon here arrival, that's a pretty hot reading. If the medium or her assistants have to research "interesting" cases of the dearly departed from parish records at the destination, then this is still a "hot" reading in our taxonomy, but it's considerably colder than with congregational help.

The exercise is to see if we can conclusively eliminate hypotheses based on the information we can be confident we know. The claimant, naturally, wants to argue that all hypotheses except the supernatural one have failed. We dig a bit deeper and investigate hypotheses that the claimant may not have considered, or which he rejected presumptively. That leaves us with a working set of natural and supernatural hypotheses. Within that set, the prima facie plausibility will naturally vary from hypothesis to hypothesis.
 
I'm not sure this is the best thread to post this in but it always amuses me when someone says -- "That's the way it happened. I remember it in vivid detail".

In my wanderings around the Intertubes I recently found this from one of our very own, Penn Jillette. He is interviewed in 2015 about P & T's appearance on the David Letterman TV show in 1985. And then the actual segment is played.

"She just growed like Topsy". The remembered story is much better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6XDMdAoRvo It's a bit long but worth every minute.

YMMV
 
Yep, and it's very, very hard to convince someone that their memory of an event might not be accurate without either a clip like that, or a great deal of time and effort.
 
I think the spirits gave me a lottery win to buy a computer, but they will not do it again because it would be bad karma to give me a big win.
These rationalizations have always fascinated me. Without the slightest evidence of either, you rationalize that it was good karma to give you the first win, but now it is bad karma. You make it up out of nothing simply because you got the first win - which must have been good, and you are not winning now, which must be bad.

If you suddenly get a tip to win tomorrow, you will rationalize that it is good karma after all.
 
No argument from me. I championed that very concept a few pages back. What I'm trying to do here is account for different temperatures of reading. We know that hot reading, where possible, produces the most convincing results. But since we ultimately do not -- and cannot -- know the facts in this case, we have to reason about how warm a cold reading would have to be in this case in order to parsimoniously account for all the facts. If the medium hears about Scorpion's case from a member of the congregation, volunteered upon here arrival, that's a pretty hot reading. If the medium or her assistants have to research "interesting" cases of the dearly departed from parish records at the destination, then this is still a "hot" reading in our taxonomy, but it's considerably colder than with congregational help.
I tend to discredit the idea that actual genealogical research is made by the mediums for an ordinary, low-profiled session. As Scorpion puts it, the few shillings that he gave, would not be worth it. The entire setup is extremely friendly to the medium. The congregation is gullible, and probably does not hesitate to advance useful data for the session. No time-consuming research is needed.
 

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