Are atheists inevitably pessimists?

[David Mo]

The existence or non existence of Gods will always be an assumption. If it were otherwise, ...

I was proposing you a mental experiment that began with the assumption that God exists. "If God exists what I have to do?" A symmetrical variety of "If God is dead everything is permitted".
I didn't trying to arise the question of God's existence but just imagine the consequences.

 

[David Mo]

I brought in the Gale-Pruss cosmological argument into this forum a while back.

It got ripped to shreds in the first couple of pages and thereafter there was nothing left to talk about.

That is the trouble with theist arguments, you eat one for dinner, you are hungry again 5 minutes later.

You put the bar too high. Gale-Pruss' pseudo-formalitzations are hard to follow. And after a big effort you realize that they fall in the same mistakes that Kant reported many years ago.
Attempts to resuscitate old theological arguments are the most turbid part of metaphysics.

I recommended you the debate Copleston-Russell because it combines high level and clarity. I have not found this in habitual Youtube debates.

 

[David Mo]

Were you ever punched in the face when you were a kid? That's a serious question, BTW.

Okay, I am an atheist (your trollish or dumb misunderstanding of atheist's views really pisses me off). I do get depressed at times. Indeed, I have tried to kill myself more than once. The last thing going though my mind as i literally took the tablets was "I wonder what God would think about this, but, as an atheist, I don't care".

NOW WHAT

What what?

 

[David Mo]

I can only take any "evidence" one point at a time. In the many years I have been listening to what the best god believers have to offer, I have never seen a single piece that is not easily refuted or does not have a much more parsimonious explanation. I can only examine "evidence" in evidence. The only thing I have learnt from these conversations is that people believe crazy stuff. Some, like those who believe they can fly, as usually quickly removed from the gene pool.

I don't know what theists you've been arguing with. I have found some that were not "easy" to refute. In my opinion their mistakes are verbal confusions but some theists are masters in that. Have you read the debate Copleston-Russell? It is easy to find in Internet.

 

[David Mo]

Unlike you I'm not trying to impose any set of playground rules. It is entirely up to you whether you decide to answer any question, as it is entirely up to me which questions I choose to answer.

Which God do I believe in?

This exactly reflects the ignorance you have about fair play in a debate. That's why I suppose your absurd question hides some attempt to entangle the subject.

But since I'm a good person and I like things to be clear, I'll explain why I told you a few days ago that your question was inappropriate.

Your attention, please.

The only possible answer to this question is: You affirm that you do not believe in any god, therefore you affirm that you don't believe in any particular god. Because the concept of a particular god is included into the set of all gods. Yes, It's a simple tautology. Simply question require simple answers.

Now comes my question.

Why don't you believe in any god?

 

[Robin]

If I am going to spend any time at all on an argument for the existence of God I want the bar to be high. It is a waste spending time on Coplestone style waffle.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I was proposing you a mental experiment that began with the assumption that God exists. "If God exists what I have to do?" A symmetrical variety of "If God is dead everything is permitted".
I didn't trying to arise the question of God's existence but just imagine the consequences.

Just so. But it's rather like asking "what would you do if you were told you only had a short time to live?". I don't know. I might try to imagine, and I might wish that I'd be brave and noble and do something admirable with my remaining time. But it's just a guess because you can't easily put yourself in that frame of mind.

So what would I do if God was real? Probably much the same as people who currently do think that God is real. That seems to cover a broad range of selflessness, selfishness, criminality, good works etc. Quite similar to people who don't believe God is real. That seems to fit with my belief that our sense of right and wrong, of fair and unfair, is instinctive and we evolved to think that way, and any notion of its being a list of forbidden and permitted actions handed down by a magical creator is a just-so story we tell ourselves to codify aspects of our natural behaviour, acclaiming those which support social cohesion and punishing those which do the reverse.

I guess I might be a bit annoyed that God had gone to such lengths to make it seem as if He didn't exist. I might rest assured that He couldn't blame me for failing to believe in Him since he'd done such a good job of concealing His existence and He knows I'd conclude He was just pretend as He knows how my mind works having made me. So He couldn't punish me for being the me He made, unless He was a real jerk in which case **** Him.

There's also the matter of how, if God was real, I would discover this. With the current evidence, I've concluded He's imaginary. So something would have to change. Perhaps whatever that is would have a bearing on how I would react. Do you have something specific in mind?

 

[The Common Potato]

What what?

Thought so. You are unable to follow what's going on in this thread.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Because the concept of a particular god is included into the set of all gods. Yes, It's a simple tautology. Simply question require simple answers.

Why don't you believe in any god?

A person only needs to apply a hypothesis to an observable phenomena.

As there is no observable phenomena that requires any "God" from the set of potential god types, to be included in a hypothesis, I don't have to contemplate any "God". Therefore I don't have to believe in any "God".

 

[David Mo]

If I am going to spend any time at all on an argument for the existence of God I want the bar to be high. It is a waste spending time on Coplestone style waffle.

I'm not sure what exactly the "style waffle" is, but I can imagine.
I don't think Copleston was a waffle. If Russell agreed to discuss with him, it's because he respected him.

Have you read/listen to the debate? Could you give an example of Copleston's "waffle style"?

I think Copleston gives the best that a theist can give that is a lot or a little according to the point of view.

 

[David Mo]

Just so. But it's rather like asking "what would you do if you were told you only had a short time to live?". I don't know. I might try to imagine, and I might wish that I'd be brave and noble and do something admirable with my remaining time. But it's just a guess because you can't easily put yourself in that frame of mind.

So what would I do if God was real? Probably much the same as people who currently do think that God is real. That seems to cover a broad range of selflessness, selfishness, criminality, good works etc. Quite similar to people who don't believe God is real.

There is a thing that you have forgotten. You wouldn't justify your decisions because some Big Father has said that... No spiritual consultant to tell you what Big Father commands. You wouldn't let anyone or Someone decide for you. You should search for a justification by yourself.

This difference is not trivial.

 

[David Mo]

Thought so. You are unable to follow what's going on in this thread.

If you explain what you're saying, we can discuss it. Because I have the impression that it is you who cannot follow in my track.

 

[David Mo]

A person only needs to apply a hypothesis to an observable phenomena.

As there is no observable phenomena that requires any "God" from the set of potential god types, to be included in a hypothesis, I don't have to contemplate any "God". Therefore I don't have to believe in any "God".

This is a reasonable answer. It only needs some clarifications.
Defenders of the theory of Intelligent Design claim that the hypothesis of God is verified when phenomena are investigated. Do you agree? Why not?

 

[asydhouse]

The spirits I have listened to speaking through trance mediums have said we can help ourselves, and we do not always have to suffer to learn.

Lucky for you that none of those ‘mediums’ have decided to tell you that you are about to die, or that you are cursed or whatever. You put yourself in a vulnerable position by subjecting yourself to people who are basically scamming you, which you would realise if you took note of their obvious ignorance of the real world described so completely and convincingly by the theories so thoroughly tested out by science.

Personally, as an atheist I am content to be free of all mystical bs and all such scammers, from priests to hippies denying their kids vaccination. I am basically optimistic in my own life, despite having encountered many disappointments over time from thieves and brutes etc. I have always tended to reject the absurdities of the religious minded by instinct (not least the notion of fearing god, even though they claim that god is love!).

But my instinct is that life is good: that has been drawn out by observing that despite all the ways it can go wrong, when I get ill I tend to get well again, both physically and mentally.

I feel free to make my own life however I want, and to find meaning in my own ways, be that through my own actions and attitudes or through those of my fellow human beings.

I feel free. I feel ‘spiritual’ fulfilment when I immerse myself in music on a dance floor with dozens of other people smiling and gurning away through the night in psychedelic delight, or when I share a quiet walk in the woods with my wife, etc (I could go on, but just think about the word ‘culture’ and all its ramifications to supply your own spirituality, and you have some idea).

So as an atheist I see no reason to be pessimistic in the least. I don’t even need optimism! I’m simply free! Which makes me feel well.


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[Jack by the hedge]

There is a thing that you have forgotten. You wouldn't justify your decisions because some Big Father has said that... No spiritual consultant to tell you what Big Father commands. You wouldn't let anyone or Someone decide for you. You should search for a justification by yourself.

This difference is not trivial.

Without a spiritual consultant to tell me that some or other Gods exist and instruct me on what They expect of me, how do I ever discover that They do exist?

Something would have to change in the world to make me suspect any Gods exist. So perhaps your question becomes "What if the world was different?". Okay, but different how?

 

[David Mo]

Without a spiritual consultant to tell me that some or other Gods exist and instruct me on what They expect of me, how do I ever discover that They do exist?

I don't understand the question.

I have told you that if you are a consistent atheist you must find justification for your actions in a godless world. Not that you should find the justification of the gods.

 

[Steve]

I don't understand the question.

I have told you that if you are a consistent atheist you must find justification for your actions in a godless world. Not that you should find the justification of the gods.

I am astounded that one person could fit so much wrong into a single sentence.

 

[The Common Potato]

If you explain what you're saying, we can discuss it. Because I have the impression that it is you who cannot follow in my track.

Oh, sod off David. (Sorry, mods.) You are being totally dishonest in your approach, IMO. You do not want to discuss anything. You are getting a little thrill out of this. I have no evidence of this, but that won't worry you.

Serious question: how old are you? I'd guess 14.

 

[JesseCuster]

I have told you that if you are a consistent atheist you must find justification for your actions in a godless world.

Why?

Do we have to justify all our actions? Blowing my nose? Deciding what to wear in the morning? Or is just moral actions? Important moral actions? Do we have to justify them in terms of not believing in God? Justify our actions to ourselves? Justify our actions to others?

I'm genuinely perplexed by where you're coming from and where you're heading with all of this. To me (and perhaps it's just me), this is just another grand declaration about what atheists must or do do, and when they disagree with you, I'm going to predict that the statement "you must find justification for your actions in a godless world." is going to be watered down until it becomes some dull self-evident and/or inconsequential truth like the other grand statements you've made in this thread.

Is there an overall coherent point to all this?

 

[Robin]

God or no God, justification for action always ultimately boils down to "because I want to"

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