The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 29

[Vixen]

FYI Vixen, DNA is not "found in protein". "protein" does not mean "bodily fluids". Sebaceous glands produce sebum which it seems is made up of triglycerides, free fatty acids, wax esters, squalene, cholesterol esters, and cholesterol. All of those are lipids and none of them are either DNA or protein. This is not a matter of clumsy wording. This is a matter of you being way, way out of your depth. kemo sabe?

You are wrong. The only time the skin produces good quality DNA samples (as opposed to normal every day flaking) is when:

• the skin is vigorously rubbed or flaked
• it is obtained near a sebacceous gland (where your hair roots are) because your hair follicles contain DNA and the greasy sweat makes it 'stickable' onto surfaces

This is why the courts deemed:

• Amanda Knox either rubbed her hands together, to produce such a copious amount of her DNA in the sink, mixed in with Meredith's blood
• the evidence shows she was actually bleeding herself - from various blood stains in the bathroom - DNA is only found in nucleated cells and only white blood cells have nucleii. Thus, for her DNA to have been even MORE COPIOUS than Mez' she was almost certainly bleeding at the same time, for hers to be dominant over a profusely bleeding murder victim's.
• Sollecito must have pressed his fingers firmly on the bra clasp hook for it to have shown such a high profile DNA sample. There were fragments of 6-8 allele of another two males, which can safely be dismissed as background contamination (for example, from dust).

Now, as the skin doesn't really yield much DNA (see above) I would hypothesise that Raff may have wiped his brow hence transferring a strong DNA onto his hand. In moments of intense fear or danger (and carrying out a wicked murder would create such an involuntary physical reaction - perspiring is not something you can control) sweat is likely to be pouring down your forehead and temples - whilst your chest, back and underarms are likely covered by clothing - which is so irritating, Raff likely automatically wiped his brow without even thinking. Hence, his extremely strong DNA profile on the bra clasp as it was bent during the attack which certainly is not LCN.

Hello? Smell the coffee.

His footprint also appears on the bathmat.

Do wake up.

 

[Stacyhs]

Bill, I don't know about you, but I remain due to this thread's pure entertainment value. It never fails to make me laugh.

 

[Vixen]

Bill, I don't know about you, but I remain due to this thread's pure entertainment value. It never fails to make me laugh.

That's what trolls live for. A good laugh and a rise.

 

[Matthew Best]

We must all defer to your superior knowledge of the troll mentality.

 

[Stacyhs]

That's what trolls live for. A good laugh and a rise.

Trolls often provide a good laugh with their outrageous behavior. For example, claiming a 9 lb 'boulder' can't be thrown 6 feet directly across through a window by an athletic young man, that Knox flew home on a private jet, that the theft charges of the wallet from Kercher's purse were 'dropped', that Knox was 'bleeding profusely", etc.

Thanks for the memories!

 

[Bill Williams]

This is why the courts deemed:

• Amanda Knox either rubbed her hands together, to produce such a copious amount of her DNA in the sink, mixed in with Meredith's blood
• the evidence shows she was actually bleeding herself - from various blood stains in the bathroom - DNA is only found in nucleated cells and only white blood cells have nucleii. Thus, for her DNA to have been even MORE COPIOUS than Mez' she was almost certainly bleeding at the same time, for hers to be dominant over a profusely bleeding murder victim's.

Ah, er, no - this is not what the evidence shows. This is what an anonymous guilter-nutter has been posting for years.

The original convicting court advanced this as a theory, conceding at the time that the hard evidence actually **didn't** show this..... but "deduced" it as factual on other grounds. Fast forward to 2015 when the Italian Supreme Court itself mentioned this factoid, saying that its proof was "elegant", then did not provide or even cite the alleged proof.

It's when one goes on their own search for this "elegant proof" that one discovers that even the court advancing the factoid admitted there wasn't one!

Yet here you are all these years later cut and pasting from Harry Rag, who still bangs on about "mixed blood", albeit now through the back door.

And remember, the end point of your rationale is that the reason why this factoid never convicted anyone is that the Mafia, Masons, and powerful American media interests conspired to rig Italy's courts.

So, you're diverting from claiming DNA was a protein by recycling Harry Rag's tripe. Good strategy. Except you forget, again, that this thread keeps a permanent record of your gaffes and avoidences.

 

[whoanellie]

You are wrong.
.
.
.
.

Do wake up.

Good morning Vixen. I did just wake up. You quote a post of mine, state that I am wrong, and then produce a screed that has nothing to do with my post. What is it that you contend I was wrong about? I understand your desire to change the subject but I am not playing.

 

[LondonJohn]

You are wrong. The only time the skin produces good quality DNA samples (as opposed to normal every day flaking) is when:

• the skin is vigorously rubbed or flaked
• it is obtained near a sebacceous gland (where your hair roots are) because your hair follicles contain DNA and the greasy sweat makes it 'stickable' onto surfaces

Oh my my my. This just gets more and more embarrassing. In yet another double-down, you've further illustrated your utter ignorance of cellular biology.

You appear to believe that DNA sort of floats around freely in the human body. As evidenced by your fatuous belief that "greasy sweat makes it (i.e. DNA) 'stickable' onto surfaces".

As you've now been told several times by people who actually understand this subject..... DNA is bound within the nuclei of cells. Unless the cell is broken apart in a denaturing process, the DNA remains bound within the nucleus. It is not floating around ready to be "stickable" onto surfaces.

See, Vixen, when DNA analysis is conducted, the first step in the process is the denaturing of the cells present, in order to allow the DNA to separate out. Up until that happens, the DNA is just one constituent part of the nucleus, which in turn is just one constituent part of the cell. It's cells that get transferred. The DNA gets transferred only by virtue of it being present within the nuclei which are within the cells which get transferred.

Please, please stop pretending you understand this - until, that is, you actually do. And similarly, please stop attempting to wriggle out of one hole of ignorance by digging an even bigger hole of ignorance. Thank you in advance.

This is why the courts deemed:

• Amanda Knox either rubbed her hands together, to produce such a copious amount of her DNA in the sink, mixed in with Meredith's blood
• the evidence shows she was actually bleeding herself - from various blood stains in the bathroom - DNA is only found in nucleated cells and only white blood cells have nucleii. Thus, for her DNA to have been even MORE COPIOUS than Mez' she was almost certainly bleeding at the same time, for hers to be dominant over a profusely bleeding murder victim's.
• Sollecito must have pressed his fingers firmly on the bra clasp hook for it to have shown such a high profile DNA sample. There were fragments of 6-8 allele of another two males, which can safely be dismissed as background contamination (for example, from dust).

Now, as the skin doesn't really yield much DNA (see above) I would hypothesise that Raff may have wiped his brow hence transferring a strong DNA onto his hand. In moments of intense fear or danger (and carrying out a wicked murder would create such an involuntary physical reaction - perspiring is not something you can control) sweat is likely to be pouring down your forehead and temples - whilst your chest, back and underarms are likely covered by clothing - which is so irritating, Raff likely automatically wiped his brow without even thinking. Hence, his extremely strong DNA profile on the bra clasp as it was bent during the attack which certainly is not LCN.

Hello? Smell the coffee.

His footprint also appears on the bathmat.

Do wake up.

See, I can stop you as soon as your first six words of this whole passage:

"This is why the courts deemed......"

Because everything written after that is, in a very real sense (both judicially and ethically) worthless, Vixen. Because, you see, what the lower courts "deemed" is literally worth absolutely nothing whatsoever. Do you know why that is so, Vixen? I mean, you really ought to know by now why it is so, but just for the avoidance of doubt, it would be great if you were to explain it. Again, thanks in advance.

Never were your final three words more ironic.

 

[TruthCalls]

You are wrong. The only time the skin produces good quality DNA samples (as opposed to normal every day flaking) is when:

• the skin is vigorously rubbed or flaked
• it is obtained near a sebacceous gland (where your hair roots are) because your hair follicles contain DNA and the greasy sweat makes it 'stickable' onto surfaces

And on what basis would one conclude Amanda's DNA came from her skin?

This is why the courts deemed:

• Amanda Knox either rubbed her hands together, to produce such a copious amount of her DNA in the sink, mixed in with Meredith's blood
• the evidence shows she was actually bleeding herself - from various blood stains in the bathroom - DNA is only found in nucleated cells and only white blood cells have nucleii. Thus, for her DNA to have been even MORE COPIOUS than Mez' she was almost certainly bleeding at the same time, for hers to be dominant over a profusely bleeding murder victim's.

The profusely bleeding Meredith lay dying in her bedroom, not the bathroom. What the evidence shows is the blood being collected is extremely diluted. So we can assume someone was either rinsing themselves off or perhaps the knife, and in the process they splatter blood laced water drops. This results in far lower RFU values than pure blood drops.

And while I am at it, this was a bathroom, and Amanda does brush her teeth there. I'm assuming you realize many other bodily fluids produce DNA other than blood or rubbed/sweaty skin. In fact saliva is a great source of DNA. And what do we do when we brush our teeth? ...we spit saliva. So it is a logic theory to conclude what was collected was traces of Amanda's saliva along with some diluted blood from Meredith. This would be entirely consistent with the lab results.

• Sollecito must have pressed his fingers firmly on the bra clasp hook for it to have shown such a high profile DNA sample. There were fragments of 6-8 allele of another two males, which can safely be dismissed as background contamination (for example, from dust).

Now, as the skin doesn't really yield much DNA (see above) I would hypothesise that Raff may have wiped his brow hence transferring a strong DNA onto his hand.

So I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you've never read anything about secondary and tertiary transfer experiments which prove the mere act of picking up an object can result in enough DNA transfer to result in secondary transfer to the next person picking the object up?

What was the source of Meredith's DNA on the clasp which was 6x that of Raffaele's? Did she bleed on it? Or maybe her's was direct transfer from her fingers when putting it on and Raffaele's was secondary or tertiary transfer, thus yielding such a weak, LCN profile.

In moments of intense fear or danger (and carrying out a wicked murder would create such an involuntary physical reaction - perspiring is not something you can control) sweat is likely to be pouring down your forehead and temples - whilst your chest, back and underarms are likely covered by clothing - which is so irritating, Raff likely automatically wiped his brow without even thinking. Hence, his extremely strong DNA profile on the bra clasp as it was bent during the attack which certainly is not LCN.

Hello? Smell the coffee.

His footprint also appears on the bathmat.

According to Vinci the print was compatible with Guede, incompatible with Raffaele, but I guess I understand why you like to pretend that analysis exists.

Do wake up.

 

[TomG]

I've been catching up on a few books that I shamefully should have read long before now. One of them is "Three false convictions many lessons" by David C. Anderson and Nigel P. Scott, that deals with "The psychopathology of unjust prosecutions". It deals with the Kercher, Kiszko and Darlie Routier cases and explores the psychopathic/sociopathic mindset of the prosecution and police in contriving their convictions, and why "conditional negative empathy" types gravitate towards these professions.

I'm apparently the only one posting here that thinks that Mignini knew that Rudy was involved with Meredith's murder from day one and deliberately contrived the case against K&S; however, the book refers to psychological traits that are charcterised by conditional negative empathy that could quite easily accommodate the likes of Mignini, Comodi and others involved in the case, resulting in the deliberate framing of K&S. No-one posting here (except perhaps one) comes close to having conditional negative empathy which is perhaps why it's more difficult to comprehend that these individual certainly do exist in our society in very high places. Anyway, it's food for thought if you want to give it a read.

Hoots

 

[Numbers]

.... DNA is bound within the nuclei of cells. Unless the cell is broken apart in a denaturing process, the DNA remains bound within the nucleus. It is not floating around ready to be "stickable" onto surfaces.

...when DNA analysis is conducted, the first step in the process is the denaturing of the cells present, in order to allow the DNA to separate out. Up until that happens, the DNA is just one constituent part of the nucleus, which in turn is just one constituent part of the cell. It's cells that get transferred. The DNA gets transferred only by virtue of it being present within the nuclei which are within the cells which get transferred.
....

1. LondonJohn, your post is almost entirely correct, but incomplete in neglecting to mention that there is a specific DNA (different from nuclear DNA) within the mitrochondria (the energy organelles, outside the nucleus but contained within their own membranes within the cell cytoplasm). Of course, mitrochondrial DNA was not analyzed by Stefanoni's scientific police lab (they most likely would not have had the necessary technology) and thus is not relevant in this case. In this case, the DNA analyzed, using STR technology, was indeed the DNA within the nucleus, which is separated from the rest of the cell by the nuclear membrane.

2. While some contents of the cells are denatured during the preparation for the DNA test, a better description of the initial action of preparation is that the cells are disrupted - cell and nuclear membranes are broken apart to free the nuclear DNA for the STR analysis.

3. In is indeed cells that are transferred, rather than exposed DNA, in crime scenes and in daily life. In DNA forensic laboratory settings, such as Stefanoni's scientific police lab, "naked" DNA itself may be transferred in contamination incidents.

 

[Stacyhs]

You are wrong. The only time the skin produces good quality DNA samples (as opposed to normal every day flaking) is when:

• the skin is vigorously rubbed or flaked
• it is obtained near a sebacceous gland (where your hair roots are) because your hair follicles contain DNA and the greasy sweat makes it 'stickable' onto surfaces

Oh, dear. Such ignorance. One does NOT have to rub vigorously to transfer skin cells. It's called touch transfer for a reason.

...the simple act of picking up an object or touching a surface can lead to the identification and apprehension of a criminal. In the world of the forensic DNA analyst, the analysis of “touch” DNA samples is no longer the exception to the rule, it is the norm.

http://ryanforensicdna.com/touchdna/
According to you, someone would have to vigorously rub a coffee cup or a light switch to transfer their cells.

This is why the courts deemed:

• Amanda Knox either rubbed her hands together, to produce such a copious amount of her DNA in the sink, mixed in with Meredith's blood
• the evidence shows she was actually bleeding herself - from various blood stains in the bathroom - DNA is only found in nucleated cells and only white blood cells have nucleii. Thus, for her DNA to have been even MORE COPIOUS than Mez' she was almost certainly bleeding at the same time, for hers to be dominant over a profusely bleeding murder victim's.

• 
  
  Knox's blood was found in one place, and one place only, in the house: on the bathroom faucet. There was no "in various places". Stop lying. Would you care to explain just why Knox would point out her own blood to the police instead of cleaning it up? If she'd been "bleeding profusely" as you keep falsely claiming, she'd have cleaned up all the blood she could see in that bathroom. Logic, Vix, logic.
  
  Once again, when you resort to "almost certainly", it means you have no evidence so you just make crap up.
  
  
  

  [*]Sollecito must have pressed his fingers firmly on the bra clasp hook for it to have shown such a high profile DNA sample. There were fragments of 6-8 allele of another two males, which can safely be dismissed as background contamination (for example, from dust).

Now, as the skin doesn't really yield much DNA (see above) I would hypothesise that Raff may have wiped his brow hence transferring a strong DNA onto his hand. In moments of intense fear or danger (and carrying out a wicked murder would create such an involuntary physical reaction - perspiring is not something you can control) sweat is likely to be pouring down your forehead and temples - whilst your chest, back and underarms are likely covered by clothing - which is so irritating, Raff likely automatically wiped his brow without even thinking. Hence, his extremely strong DNA profile on the bra clasp as it was bent during the attack which certainly is not LCN.

Please try and stick to the evidence and retire your vivid imagination.

Hello? Smell the coffee.

That ain't coffee we're smelling.

His footprint also appears on the bathmat.

Do wake up.

Not according to the Supreme Court, it ain't.
Do stop living in 2009.

 

[TomG]

Sollecito must have pressed his fingers firmly on the bra clasp hook for it to have shown such a high profile DNA sample. There were fragments of 6-8 allele of another two males, which can safely be dismissed as background contamination (for example, from dust).
.

It's always confused me as to why at least 3 male profiles were found on the bra-clasp and nowhere else at the crime scene. It seems that if the traces were NOT due to contamination there would have to be at least 3 different male assailants attacking Meredith with the sole interest of seizing the bra-clasp and having no interest or interaction with anything else in the room. Why didn't these 3 anonymous assailants not just ask Meredith for her bra-clasp and spare the poor girls life since that it seems was all they were interested in? Once the 3 anonymous assailants did get the clasp, what did they do with it except leave their traces all over it? Did they perform a little ritual before burying the bra-clasp under the rug in Meredith's room? OMG! it's got to be the masons! Hey, I've an idea! Why don't we ask Naseer (The man from Atlan) to ask the now archived Gabriella Carlizzi who can then contact Meredith who can.....Nah! I've got a better idea, it's CONTAMINATION right?

Hoots

 

[bagels]

Corroboration is the basis for proving a criminal case, and this case has none. Evidence isn't left by fairies to help the police, it's the result of an actual event that actually occurred. This leaves corroborating webs connecting the evidence together.

So you have the following pieces of evidence:

1. Rudy Guede's criminal history of trespassing and break-ins
2. A figure consistent with Rudy Guede seen approaching the empty cottage alone on CCTV
3. An apparent break-in at the cottage
4. Rudy Guede's shoeprints at the cottage
5. Rudy's complete lack of a plausible reason for being at the cottage

Notice that all 5 pieces of evidence here are themselves connected in a web of corroboration, because they are impressions of an event that actually occurred and themselves form a picture of what actually happened.

Forensically destroyed bra clasps and blood negative dna negative luminol stains and random blood on sinks floating around in the ether untethered to anything is exactly what we would expect if the prosecution was just desperately trying to construct evidence and a case from nothing but noise and biased contrived sampling. Where are Amanda's wounds she bled from? Where's the sign of the cleanup that created the luminol stains? Why was she spotted by an eyewitness comfortably settled in to her boyfriends apartment mere minutes before the crime occurred? Etc. Being a delusional guilter prevents you from spotting that none of the evidence is connected. It's sad for them and I thank the goddesses by their Divine Grace that I wasn't cursed with a simple mind.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen on biochemistry:
"Likewise, DNA, being a protein, doesn't usually stick unless there are moist or oily conditions, such as saliva, perspiration, moist skin cells, blood and other bodily fluids."
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11175075#post11175075
Vixen on cell biology:
"She extracted the cell from its nucleus"
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11418330#post11418330
Vixen on classical mechanics:
"If thrown from outside, the impact on the window/shutter (assuming it can get through the gap of the outter shutters, which Massei accept it could not have) would be weight of the object times distance travelled, which is say, 10lb x six feet (72")= 720lbs (kinetic energy) divided by the distance it comes to a halt."
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11614727#post11614727
Vixen on dimensional analysis:
"In a foot system, it is OK to convert into inches, as the distance at 'stop' level is often a small fraction of the distance travelled, hence it makes sense to convert 6 feet into 72 inches, if the stop distance is a fraction of an inch. (This is just a nicetie, and of course, not mandatory.) the weight of the rock was expressed in lbs for similar reason."
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11615129#post11615129
Vixen on IT
"I am sure a first year IT student would have no problem unscrewing the back and taking out the motherboard and frying the disk."
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12020274#post12020274
Vixen:
“I am a mathematician and a scientist.”
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11651593#post11651593

If it is incorrect that weight x velocity equals distance travelled of a thrown inanimate obiect, how come when I was watching the mm-world championship athletics t'other day a narrrative came up on my screen displaying at what velocity each javelin thrower threw his javelin as it lauched in the air? Surely there must be a link for the highest speed at release were also the ones that seemed to travel the furthest. (134 mpk iirc.)

 

[Vixen]

It's always confused me as to why at least 3 male profiles were found on the bra-clasp and nowhere else at the crime scene. It seems that if the traces were NOT due to contamination there would have to be at least 3 different male assailants attacking Meredith with the sole interest of seizing the bra-clasp and having no interest or interaction with anything else in the room. Why didn't these 3 anonymous assailants not just ask Meredith for her bra-clasp and spare the poor girls life since that it seems was all they were interested in? Once the 3 anonymous assailants did get the clasp, what did they do with it except leave their traces all over it? Did they perform a little ritual before burying the bra-clasp under the rug in Meredith's room? OMG! it's got to be the masons! Hey, I've an idea! Why don't we ask Naseer (The man from Atlan) to ask the now archived Gabriella Carlizzi who can then contact Meredith who can.....Nah! I've got a better idea, it's CONTAMINATION right?

Hoots

FYI The bra clasp was originally found UNDER the body which was UNDER a duvet UNDER scattered bits of paper that the 'interrupted burglar' was scattering during his burglary BEFORE being 'interrupted' by Mez.

How did Raff's DNA get to there from the door?

Go figure.

 

[Vixen]

Corroboration is the basis for proving a criminal case, and this case has none. Evidence isn't left by fairies to help the police, it's the result of an actual event that actually occurred. This leaves corroborating webs connecting the evidence together.

So you have the following pieces of evidence:

1. Rudy Guede's criminal history of trespassing and break-ins
2. A figure consistent with Rudy Guede seen approaching the empty cottage alone on CCTV
3. An apparent break-in at the cottage
4. Rudy Guede's shoeprints at the cottage
5. Rudy's complete lack of a plausible reason for being at the cottage

Notice that all 5 pieces of evidence here are themselves connected in a web of corroboration, because they are impressions of an event that actually occurred and themselves form a picture of what actually happened.

Forensically destroyed bra clasps and blood negative dna negative luminol stains and random blood on sinks floating around in the ether untethered to anything is exactly what we would expect if the prosecution was just desperately trying to construct evidence and a case from nothing but noise and biased contrived sampling. Where are Amanda's wounds she bled from? Where's the sign of the cleanup that created the luminol stains? Why was she spotted by an eyewitness comfortably settled in to her boyfriends apartment mere minutes before the crime occurred? Etc. Being a delusional guilter prevents you from spotting that none of the evidence is connected. It's sad for them and I thank the goddesses by their Divine Grace that I wasn't cursed with a simple mind.

Sorry to break it to you but Guede has no criminal record of trespassing or breaking in.

No point reading any further.

As for your last sentence...say no more.

 

[LondonJohn]

If it is incorrect that weight x velocity equals distance travelled of a thrown inanimate obiect, how come when I was watching the mm-world championship athletics t'other day a narrrative came up on my screen displaying at what velocity each javelin thrower threw his javelin as it lauched in the air? Surely there must be a link for the highest speed at release were also the ones that seemed to travel the furthest. (134 mpk iirc.)

Oh. My. Word.

Hint: it is incorrect that weight (I assume you ACTUALLY mean mass) x velocity equals distance travelled of a thrown inanimate object. Stunningly incorrect.


ETA: By the way, what are your feelings on the other science zingers of yours in that list? Incredulous minds would love to know.

ETA2: And since you're here, how are you doing in addressing your lie that you have reliable evidence showing that the Knox family engaged in a "$2 million PR campaign"? Or are you perhaps ready to perform a miracle worth of Cardinal Newman and admit that you have no such evidence, and that this "$2 million PR campaign" crap was a wholesale invention of the pro-guilt community....?

 

[LondonJohn]

FYI The bra clasp was originally found UNDER the body which was UNDER a duvet UNDER scattered bits of paper that the 'interrupted burglar' was scattering during his burglary BEFORE being 'interrupted' by Mez.

How did Raff's DNA get to there from the door?

Go figure.

Where was the bra clasp situated when it was RECOVERED FOR ANALYSIS, Vixen?

Jeez


Hint #2 in a never-ending series: when it was actually recovered for analysis, in mid-December, the bra clasp was in the midst of a pile of debris and dust that had been seemingly swept under a rug at least a metre away from where it had been on the afternoon of November 2nd.....

 

[LondonJohn]

Sorry to break it to you but Guede has no criminal record of trespassing or breaking in.

No point reading any further.

As for your last sentence...say no more.

Sorry to break it to you but neither Knox nor Sollecito has any criminal record for anything to do with the murder of Meredith Kercher.

No point in reading literally anything you write.