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Man shot, killed by off-duty Dallas police officer who walked into wrong apartment p3

Another point that I'm not sure has been discussed: If police officers are allowed (or even required) to carry their weapons even when off duty, then they must also be required to follow department procedure even when off duty. So the fact that "I was off duty; it was my home" is no excuse for the fact that she didn't call for backup before going in and engaging the "intruder."

Further, another point that I don't recall having seen mentioned is the fact that her apartment was on the third floor meant that the "intruder" wasn't going anywhere; it's not like he could run out the back door. So she really had no excuse at all.
 
SpitfireIX said:
Another point that I'm not sure has been discussed: If police officers are allowed (or even required) to carry their weapons even when off duty, then they must also be required to follow department procedure even when off duty. So the fact that "I was off duty; it was my home" is no excuse for the fact that she didn't call for backup before going in and engaging the "intruder."

Further, another point that I don't recall having seen mentioned is the fact that her apartment was on the third floor meant that the "intruder" wasn't going anywhere; it's not like he could run out the back door. So she really had no excuse at all.
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They are allowed but definitely not required. My best friend is a cop, his sister is a cop, his father in law is a cop and two brothers in law are cops and none of them carry when off duty. My best friend either leaves his firearm in his locker at the station or in a gun safe at home.

Some officers do carry when off duty though.
 
acbytesla said:
They are allowed but definitely not required. My best friend is a cop, his sister is a cop, his father in law is a cop and two brothers in law are cops and none of them carry when off duty. My best friend either leaves his firearm in his locker at the station or in a gun safe at home.

Some officers do carry when off duty though.
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It depends on the agency. Some do require off-duty carry; including most federal law-enforcement agencies.
 
SpitfireIX said:
It depends on the agency. Some do require off-duty carry; including most federal law-enforcement agencies.
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I'm not aware of that. Do you have any references for that? I do know that Police officers in New York going to and from their job are often in uniform and are armed when they are. But I know a few FBI officers too, in fact I play golf regularly with one and he's never packing. I can't see how they can make it mandatory when you're not working.
 
SpitfireIX said:
Another point that I'm not sure has been discussed: If police officers are allowed (or even required) to carry their weapons even when off duty, then they must also be required to follow department procedure even when off duty. So the fact that "I was off duty; it was my home" is no excuse for the fact that she didn't call for backup before going in and engaging the "intruder."

Further, another point that I don't recall having seen mentioned is the fact that her apartment was on the third floor meant that the "intruder" wasn't going anywhere; it's not like he could run out the back door. So she really had no excuse at all.
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Well we mow know she liked posting violent memes on social media, which might have been considered posturing but when she'd already shot one person in a situation where other police officers saw no need to, and where she'd also made racist comments in text, it suggests she'd have welcomed the chance to shoot - especially if they were black.
 
Witness murdered.

From CNN, a witness for the prosecution in this case was murdered at his home, which is across the hall from the earlier victim. Today. Shot several times, including in the mouth.
 
wasapi said:
From CNN, a witness for the prosecution in this case was murdered at his home, which is across the hall from the earlier victim. Today. Shot several times, including in the mouth.
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Other sources say he was living in another apartment five miles away, and was ambushed in the parking lot
 
Thank you for the clarification. It seems less and less that this was connected to the trial. If not for the fact his name is tied to the case, he would just be another statistic of gang violence.
 
BTW the claims that he was shot in the mouth are disputed and there has been no claim from authorities that it was gang related (other than the not so meaningful use that multiple shooters could be referred to as a "gang"). News reports describe this victim as a college educated former football player turned entrepreneur managing multiple Airbnb properties.
 
acbytesla said:
I'm not aware of that. Do you have any references for that? I do know that Police officers in New York going to and from their job are often in uniform and are armed when they are. But I know a few FBI officers too, in fact I play golf regularly with one and he's never packing. I can't see how they can make it mandatory when you're not working.
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I have to admit that my information may be out of date. I have a friend from high school who was an ATF agent, and then an armed Postal Inspector's agent. He told me he was required to carry off duty, unless on vacation or leave. This was about 10 years ago, however.

I'll see if I can find some authoritative sources.
 
acbytesla said:
I'm not aware of that. Do you have any references for that? I do know that Police officers in New York going to and from their job are often in uniform and are armed when they are. But I know a few FBI officers too, in fact I play golf regularly with one and he's never packing. I can't see how they can make it mandatory when you're not working.
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Well here is a case involving if off duty cops are legally allowed to threaten people with guns with out consequence like on duty cops.

https://www.deseret.com/2018/4/30/20644213/firearm-case-could-affect-all-utah-police-officers

This permits the carry everywhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Officers_Safety_Act

As for required, that would be agency policy. So you could get fired for not carrying but would not likely be open to criminal charges.
 
Belz... said:
I was looking for a non-facetious answer, actually. I'm not a Texas attorney.
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The way that Texas law is written, manslaughter is not appropriate. Manslaughter, in Texas, is "recklessly or carelessly" causing death, like an accident. Murder is "intentionally causing death".

Simply put, there is nothing accidental about pointing a gun at someone, intentionally firing, and causing death. The death was intentional. So the choice is between Murder or some valid self-defense claim, which failed. The law is not really written to allow hedging with manslaughter. The legally rigorous interpretation would be either Murder, or acquittal.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
The way that Texas law is written, manslaughter is not appropriate. Manslaughter, in Texas, is "recklessly or carelessly" causing death, like an accident. Murder is "intentionally causing death".

Simply put, there is nothing accidental about pointing a gun at someone, intentionally firing, and causing death. The death was intentional. So the choice is between Murder or some valid self-defense claim, which failed. The law is not really written to allow hedging with manslaughter. The legally rigorous interpretation would be either Murder, or acquittal.
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Yea the only way to have made a case for manslaughter would be to argue that the gun fired with out her intent to fire it. That she was merely intending to threaten him with it as is legal for the police but not regular citizens. But even she wasn't trying to argue this.

I mean I guess she could make the argument that she thought he was an escaped gorilla but again not likely to go over all that well.

To be manslaughter she would have had to not intentionally be firing at a person, and that isn't what happened and to stretch the case to make it just becomes ridiculous.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
The way that Texas law is written, manslaughter is not appropriate. Manslaughter, in Texas, is "recklessly or carelessly" causing death, like an accident. Murder is "intentionally causing death".

Simply put, there is nothing accidental about pointing a gun at someone, intentionally firing, and causing death. The death was intentional. So the choice is between Murder or some valid self-defense claim, which failed. The law is not really written to allow hedging with manslaughter. The legally rigorous interpretation would be either Murder, or acquittal.
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Thank you.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
The way that Texas law is written, manslaughter is not appropriate. Manslaughter, in Texas, is "recklessly or carelessly" causing death, like an accident. Murder is "intentionally causing death".

Simply put, there is nothing accidental about pointing a gun at someone, intentionally firing, and causing death. The death was intentional. So the choice is between Murder or some valid self-defense claim, which failed. The law is not really written to allow hedging with manslaughter. The legally rigorous interpretation would be either Murder, or acquittal.
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Which was why some of us were sweating that Mistake of Fact angle, and the jury instruction to find not guilty if it was accepted to be reasonable that she went to the wrong apartment and thought Jean was an intruder.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Well here is a case involving if off duty cops are legally allowed to threaten people with guns with out consequence like on duty cops.

https://www.deseret.com/2018/4/30/20644213/firearm-case-could-affect-all-utah-police-officers

This permits the carry everywhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Officers_Safety_Act

As for required, that would be agency policy. So you could get fired for not carrying but would not likely be open to criminal charges.
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It was an interesting article. I do think the article did make a false statement when it said "most" officers carry when they are off duty. I'm sure some do, but I don't think the author knew this...in fact, I don't know how anyone could know. My experience with officers is they like to put their job away when they're not working and packing a firearm would be a reminder.

We had an incident in the Seattle area where an off duty King County Detective pulled and even pointed his gun at a motorcycle rider. They suspended him for all of 5 days. The man should have been fired.
 
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