Are atheists inevitably pessimists?

David Mo said:
It is important to define the difference between gods and comic book heroes because, although both are myths, they operate differently and have different consequences in our society. There are no believers or Spiderman worship. This is the topic we were discussing. It is not a trivial.
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That has nothing to do with what I said. I said nothing about comic book heroes, that's someone else you're in a discussion with.

There's a few threads going on here, not just that discussion. Several of us are discussing other matters with you, such as my post that you responded to but didn't actually address in any manner.
 
Steve said:
1. Why "claim"? Do you think some people who claim to be atheists are actually theist?
2. Why do you think any atheist "wants" anything specifically connected to their atheism?
3. "Renunciation" of gods is not a requirement of atheism. I suspect, based on people I know, that it is very rare.
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1. I'd be surprised. I was thinking of behaviours and ideas that are proper to religion and inconsistent with atheism. For example, those who talk about founding an "atheistic church". Or those who adopt their atheism as a dogma of faith. Or those who try to found their atheism in absolute truths.

2.It was an expression literally translated from Spanish. I meant that I didn't understand those people.

3. I meant that to be an atheist you have to choose between believing in God or not believing. "Renounce" in the sense of not choosing that way.
 
JesseCuster said:
So what you're saying is that atheists must take into consideration theists beliefs when discussing those beliefs with theists? :rolleyes: That's what you're driving at?
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That was a fairly simple example that in order to be an atheist one must be aware of the concept of God used by the believer. At least the one you are debating with.

That was a fairly simple example that in order to be an atheist one must be aware of the concept of God used by the believer. At least the one you are debating with.

If you find it too evident, keep in mind that there are people here who strongly deny that the atheist has to take into account the believer's concept of God. I'm glad you agree with me. I am also amazed of this "pseudo-philosophical" position.
 
JesseCuster said:
That has nothing to do with what I said. I said nothing about comic book heroes, that's someone else you're in a discussion with.
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I was explaining the terms of my discussion with acbytesla and some others. I don't remember if you was one of them.

JesseCuster said:
Is it important for me to distinguish my atheism from other myths? I don't believe in any gods. A bunch of religions and myths have gods. That distinguishes my atheism from them. That's that. I see no point in dissecting the differences between a bunch of silly religions and gods and not believing in them. It's all rubbish, I don't buy into any of it. Why good does it do for "distinguishing" what I believe from all that nonsense?
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Therefore, your questions have nothing to do with what we were discussing.

However, if you want to introduce a new topic, I do not know why you are addressing me. If you don't want to study the history of religions don't think twice. It is an interesting subject, but it is not indispensable. I suppose that in order to define yourself as an atheist you will have a more or less shallow idea of what means this "god" that you don't believe in. That's usually enough for everyday life. I've already said it several times, but if you want to get angry and talk about rubbish and such things, don't stop on my account.
 
David Mo said:
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3. I meant that to be an atheist you have to choose between believing in God or not believing. "Renounce" in the sense of not choosing that way.
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I did not choose to not believe. I just did not believe any of the stories people told me. The stories made no sense on their face, and there was no supporting evidence presented.

I don't even understand how someone would go about choosing to believe. Either you are convinced a thing is real, or you are not.
 
Pope130 said:
I did not choose to not believe. I just did not believe any of the stories people told me. The stories made no sense on their face, and there was no supporting evidence presented.

I don't even understand how someone would go about choosing to believe. Either you are convinced a thing is real, or you are not.
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You chose not to believe because the belief in God seemed incredible to you. Choices are made for reasons. Just because they're reasonable doesn't mean you don't choose.
 
David Mo said:
You chose not to believe because the belief in God seemed incredible to you. Choices are made for reasons. Just because they're reasonable doesn't mean you don't choose.
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You should read the second half of the post you just quoted.
 
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David Mo said:
You chose not to believe because the belief in God seemed incredible to you. Choices are made for reasons. Just because they're reasonable doesn't mean you don't choose.
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If there is nothing there it is difficult to choose it.

There is no god. Nothing there to not choose.

This bizarre fixation you have with choice is predicated on an empty assumption that there is something to choose.
 
quadraginta said:
If there is nothing there it is difficult to choose it.
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You choose between beliefs based on the data you have. You will always have the choice of denying evidence or opposing faith. Dostoevsky: "Even if I have proof that God does not exist, I will continue to believe in God". Pascal: "The heart has its reasons which reason knows nothing of". It is a radical option, but possible for you.
 
David Mo said:
You choose between beliefs based on the data you have. You will always have the choice of denying evidence or opposing faith. Dostoevsky: "Even if I have proof that God does not exist, I will continue to believe in God". Pascal: "The heart has its reasons which reason knows nothing of". It is a radical option, but possible for you.
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I wasn't referring to belief, as I am sure you know. I was referring to not-belief. Nothing there to choose.
 
David Mo said:
1. I'd be surprised. I was thinking of behaviours and ideas that are proper to religion and inconsistent with atheism. For example, those who talk about founding an "atheistic church". Or those who adopt their atheism as a dogma of faith. Or those who try to found their atheism in absolute truths.
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You think those people aren't actually atheists and really believe in God? :confused:
 
David Mo said:
You chose not to believe because the belief in God seemed incredible to you. Choices are made for reasons. Just because they're reasonable doesn't mean you don't choose.
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I didn't choose to not believe in God. As time went by my belief in God became weaker and weaker until I realised I was an atheist. At no point did I make a choice to stop believing in God.

You have some odd ideas about atheism.
 
JesseCuster said:
You think those people aren't actually atheists and really believe in God? :confused:
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It's one of the standard lines we get. There's a few variations floating around; the "There's no atheists in foxholes," all the made up "Death Bed Conversions" stories about famous atheists, the "what well do you do if a dying person wants you to tell them there's a God" trap questions...
 
David Mo said:
Therefore, your questions have nothing to do with what we were discussing.
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At least make an effort to follow the thread. I was discussing something with you other than the topic of comic book heroes, which I explained to you. I didn't derail the discussion or introduce a new topic, I simply address something you posted and asked you about it.

What I said most definitely had to do with the discussion because I specifically addressed things you said in this thread and posted some thoughts on the matter.

The fact that I wasn't talking about comic book heroes (as most people in this thread aren't) does not mean what I posted "had nothing to do with what we were discussing". You're not following the thread.


However, if you want to introduce a new topic
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I didn't. I specifically responded to and addressed things you yourself have said in this thread. You shouldn't be so flippant about others being off topic when they're not, and you only think they are because you're not actually following the discussion.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
It's one of the standard lines we get. There's a few variations floating around; the "There's no atheists in foxholes," all the made up "Death Bed Conversions" stories about famous atheists, the "what well do you do if a dying person wants you to tell them there's a God" trap questions...
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I'm perplexed by David's idea about those who "claim to be atheist" and his example as people who "claim to be atheist" (and therefore by implication aren't or mightn't be really atheists), are people who want to set up atheist churches.

They want to use their lack of belief in God as a foundation for a church (an unappealing idea I admit), therefore they're not actually atheists and believe in God? What kind of sense does that make?
 
David Mo said:
That was a fairly simple example that in order to be an atheist one must be aware of the concept of God used by the believer. At least the one you are debating with.
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Can you think of other examples of how atheists must "take into account" theists beliefs other than the trivial example of taking those beliefs into account when discussing those beliefs?

It seemed that you were driving at some more general or important point about how atheists must take into account theistic beliefs, other than stating the obvious to people who aren't disagreeing with that trivial idea, but dressing it up in obtuse and philosophical language for some reason.

If you find it too evident, keep in mind that there are people here who strongly deny that the atheist has to take into account the believer's concept of God.
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Are there? Those (including me) who questioned your claim that atheists must take into consideration theists beliefs seemed to be more confused because it came across as some sort of general point about how atheists must go about their lives and were explaining how taking into account theists beliefs is not something we generally have to consider in our lives (several of us pointed out that it only comes into play when discussing theistic belief, and doesn't impact on our lives otherwise), not some trivial point about how you must take into account theists beliefs when discussing theists beliefs, which is a point not worth making and which you could have said in a single sentence with no controversy.

Instead you're making grand declarations about what atheists should do, which turn out to be rather empty or trivial ideas (like the vital project nonsense) when stripped of their verbiage.

I am also amazed of this "pseudo-philosophical" position.
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Don't be obtuse.
 
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David Mo said:
That's a play on words. You choose between believing and not believing. For good or bad reasons, that's another matter.
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David, Muslims believe that the Muslim god is the same as Christian and jewish god. They think Christians insulted him with the idea of him having a son and the trinity stuff. As an atheist do you "chose not believing" in the Christan understanding of god and then the Muslims' god Allah, or you see them as the same ? Do you sperate Yahweh from these ? "To choose not to believe" in these gods did you first resolve the issues in the descriptions of these gods ? Or you see them as the same god like Muslims think ? Can any atheist not choose disbelief in god/gods ?
 
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