Resolved: Trump Era Republicans Are Uniquely Bad in American Political History

[Frank Newgent]

Do you think Trump is like a master baker?

Yes.

There are different ways to bake the cake, depending on what sort of cake you want. Different flavoring, different temperatures, different ingredients yield different types of cake, and the president as the master baker is testing recipes and deciding what type of cake he wants.

-White House senior official

This week he kneads a dill dough.

 

[xjx388]

Oh well, since we're dragging conspiracy theories into this... No, sorry, I'm not interested in going down that BS rabbit hole. The source of the rumour was GOP candidate Andy Martin, a big fan of numerous conspiracy theories; and the one Clinton campaign staffer who circulated it was subsequently fired. Guess who was the biggest promoter of Birtherism? Oh that's right, Donald Trump and the mainstream GOP.



So, clearly you have nothing but BS conspiracy theories and half-assed attempts at whataboutism to contribute, and I can safely ignore you from here on out. Thanks for that.

Nope. I didn’t say Clinton staffers were the source of the rumor. I said they circulated it. And they did. That one was fired does not negate the fact that they were a Democrat. And the other Clinton associate who helped spread the rumor was Sidney Blumenthal. As I said, people outside the GOP trafficked in this piece of BS, so it’s not something confined to the GOP. Yes, Trump was a big supporter of the BS but I’ve already conceded that Trump is bad.

 

[johnny karate]

Nope. I didn’t say Clinton staffers were the source of the rumor. I said they circulated it. And they did. That one was fired does not negate the fact that they were a Democrat. And the other Clinton associate who helped spread the rumor was Sidney Blumenthal.

Once again, you're accepting disputed or unverified accounts as factual.

Here's a couple of links you can use to educate yourself:

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/birther-movement-founder-trump-clinton-228304

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/sid-blumenthal-birthers-clinton-obama-228388

As I said, people outside the GOP trafficked in this piece of BS, so it’s not something confined to the GOP.

There's a galaxy of difference between maybe a couple of random people who happen to be Democrats flirting with the idea behind the scenes, and a Republican presidential candidate making public proclamations.

Yes, Trump was a big supporter of the BS but I’ve already conceded that Trump is bad.

Now that we officially have that concession, all that's left for you to do is stop pretending that Trump and the GOP are somehow unconnected.

 

[Belz...]

"The GOP is uniquely bad," is an assertion. "The GOP espouses birtherism," is an assertion. In the former case, an assertion is all it can ever be, for reasons discussed by others in this thread. In the latter, an appeal to "common knowledge," is not appropriate. In fact, it's widely-known (as long as we are indulging "common knowledge" arguments) that the existing rumors of his supposed Kenyan birth were circulated by members of Hillary Clinton's campaign and considered as ammo to use against him. There were also plenty of people on that bandwagon that weren't members of the GOP so you can't even say this is a uniquely republican thing -more a whackadoodle thing. Sure, you can argue that the Tea Party republicans were big on this, but they are hardly representative of the GOP as a whole.

Similar for Trump's claims of "Illegal voting;" that's a Trump thing not a GOP-as-a-whole thing.

I've also been told that the GOP is "carrying his water" and enabling him. That's another one of those assertions that will be very hard to back up. Paul Ryan stepped down because of Trump and many GOP congresscritters are retiring in his wake. They may not want to impeach him because of the damage it will do to the party as a whole but that certainly does not imply that the GOP supports, buys into or otherwise enables Trump's nonsense.

Are you seriously suggesting that Trump's birtherism is Hillary's fault?

Is there nothing that idiot can do that's his own fault?

 

[xjx388]

Are you seriously suggesting that Trump's birtherism is Hillary's fault?



Is there nothing that idiot can do that's his own fault?

Nope.

See it doesn’t matter what I actually say, my perceived conservatism/GOP support will always color my words in people’s minds.

The only thing I said there was that people who were not GOP were involved in circulating these rumors; thus, it’s not an exclusively GOP thing. Never said it was Hillary’s fault or that Trump wasn’t an idiot.

 

[Belz...]

Nope.

See it doesn’t matter what I actually say, my perceived conservatism/GOP support will always color my words in people’s minds.

The only thing I said there was that people who were not GOP were involved in circulating these rumors; thus, it’s not an exclusively GOP thing. Never said it was Hillary’s fault or that Trump wasn’t an idiot.

Yes I saw your clarification. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[varwoche]

There's a galaxy of difference between maybe a couple of random people who happen to be Democrats flirting with the idea behind the scenes, and a Republican presidential candidate making public proclamations.

I agree, and the following fact in no way negates your broader point.

You may recall in the 2008 primaries that a picture of Obama in Somali garb was circulated. That came from a high level within the Clinton campaign. And when exposed, they defended it with an appalling GOP-like fake explanation.

 

[theprestige]

I agree, and the following fact in no way negates your broader point.

You may recall in the 2008 primaries that a picture of Obama in Somali garb was circulated. That came from a high level within the Clinton campaign. And when exposed, they defended it with an appalling GOP-like fake explanation.

I had actually forgotten that birtherism was such a hilariously bad example of the uniqueness of the modern GOP.

 

[xjx388]

I really don't like it when arguments devolve into definitional pedantry, but dude... seriously?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/concession

Conceded

But context is important. In the context of a debate, to say that someone conceded is to say that they argued one point but then conceded that that point was wrong. My very first post in this thread basically stipulated that Trump is bad so I think "conceded" is an improper use. Minor quibble.

The same one you were pushing seven years ago when you insisted over the course of several pages that a downward trend in unemployment was actually an upward trend: Defend all things Republican and attack all things Democrat, facts and reality be damned.

Wow, that was awhile back. Time proved me wrong on that front and I'm happy to admit it. Even in that thread, I altered my arguments when presented with new information. I was still wrong though. In various other threads, I have admitted that my initial criticism of Obama was unfounded; I consider him a good President even though I don't like some things he did.

Your idea of a good argument is what someone with the same ideology as yours posts on their blog.

Unfounded. In any case, enough about me as a poster. Why not just stick to things I say in this thread without attempting a hot reading based on arguments I made years ago?

Raise your standards, and then maybe we can have an actual discussion.

Trump is the GOP, whether you want to accept it or not. The GOP gave him the nomination. The GOP elected him President

The people elected him President through the electoral college.

The GOP does his bidding.

Biased source. I'm sure you can do better than that.

I kid! But I will note that BI is certainly using loaded words to make run-of-the-mill political stuff sound like the Republicans are, as you put it, "doing his bidding." What the GOP is doing is defending the current President who is a member of their party and the GOP is certainly not unique in that respect and I'm not sure why anyone is surprised by this.

You want to separate Trump from the GOP? Let me know when they make any real effort to hold him accountable.

That's an argument from silence. Much of the GOP is trying to keep him in check behind the scenes without launching a coup against a President of their own party. If they can weather the Trump Presidency, maybe they have a chance of keeping their party intact. I don't really agree with them but I also don't think that makes them evil enablers doing Trump's bidding.

It's not about sides, but rather the nature of the claim.

If someone tells me it's raining, I probably don't need to have that confirmed with additional data.

If someone tells me it's raining cocktail wieners, I might need to take a look for myself.

The nature of those claims is very simple and factual. If someone said it was raining cocktail wieners, I wouldn't even bother taking a look because I know they are lying -that simply does not happen. If the claim is "Trump is a member of the GOP," that's nice and easy.

That you want to start from the disingenuous position of feigning ignorance about how far the GOP has bent over backwards to enable Trump and insist that we "prove" it to you is silly.

That isn't a simple factual claim anymore. That's 1)a complex claim with a lot of moving parts and 2)completely subjective. It isn't really a fact at all. If you'd like to demonstrate the factual basis of this "bending over," you are free to do so. If you just want to assert that opinion as fact, I'm going to challenge it. Continued assertions that it's common knowledge are not helpful.

Well, you haven't been held to any special standard and respect needs to be earned.

You, in this thread, have cited the likes of Business Insider and Politico (I'll respond to that post presently). Those are glorified, biased blogs, not neutral sources. Yet you took me to task in the other thread for citing biased sources . . . so yeah.

As far as respect . . . I've often heard it said that "respect needs to be earned," which always comes off as some kind of tough-guy thing to me. I believe you start by respecting others and when they do things to lose that respect, hey, at least you did the right thing. But whatever . . . that's my philosophy. I don't come into arguments with an agenda and guns blazing. I want good arguments and I want to be challenged. What I don't like is the snide little stuff that happens and the overt hostility that has already sent one member on a little vacation.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Counter examples: (note, I am a Libertarian, so I don't give a **** about which party)

• Cook County democrats
• Boss Tweed machine
• Pro-slavery Democrats pre-civil war
• Know-Nothing Party

Well the others where not national making up 40% of the electorate for one, and the blatant open disregard to all rule of law nationally is pretty new.

 

[xjx388]

Once again, you're accepting disputed or unverified accounts as factual.

Here's a couple of links you can use to educate yourself:

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/birther-movement-founder-trump-clinton-228304

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/sid-blumenthal-birthers-clinton-obama-228388

Those two links say exactly what I said. 1)Clinton's staffers circulated this and considered using it and 2)Sid Blumenthal told 3 reporters from various outlets Now, you can pretend that Sid Blumenthal didn't tell three reporters to investigate Obama's Kenyan birth and that they didn't subsequently investigate that. Sid denied it, and we all know he's a Democrat and thus completely devoid of malintent. It's those journalists who have an agenda . . . or something.

There's a galaxy of difference between maybe a couple of random people who happen to be Democrats flirting with the idea behind the scenes, and a Republican presidential candidate making public proclamations.

Now that we officially have that concession, all that's left for you to do is stop pretending that Trump and the GOP are somehow unconnected.

Once again, I stipulated from the outset that Trump is bad. What I would like to see good arguments about is how Trump's badness extends to the GOP as a whole ETA: AND that any such badness is unique to the GOP. Birtherism is not a good example of that as we have hashed out here. What else?

 

[Belz...]

Biased source. I'm sure you can do better than that.

Now come on. A center-left or center-right bias isn't an egregious thing. Are they fast and loose with the facts?

Oh, wait. Your own source says they have a high factual reporting score.

I'm sure you can do better than that.

 

[xjx388]

Now come on. A center-left or center-right bias isn't an egregious thing. Are they fast and loose with the facts?



Oh, wait. Your own source says they have a high factual reporting score.



I'm sure you can do better than that.

I see...I get derided for using biased sources and told I need neutral sources but a story with this headline:

Republicans come out swinging in defense of Trump after House Democrats launch impeachment inquiry

that uses loaded words (as my source says they are wont to do) like “come out swinging,” isn’t a problem? They quoted three Republicans as defending Trump but also noted that Mitt Romney rebuked Trump and the Senate republicans joined with the Democrats and unanimously voted for Trump to release the whistleblower complaint. That hardly sounds like “coming out swinging” or “doing his bidding.”

I’ll also note that I followed-up with “I kid!” and pointed out the exact problem I had with the story.

My sources from the other NC thread got the basic facts right and that’s what I focused on there. But nope, no good apparently, because those are “biased” sources to begin with and thus, dismissible on their face.

It’s a double standard.

 

[theprestige]

This week he kneads a dill dough.

Oh yay, a sex joke.

Anyway, my bad. I meant that Trump is like a master baker in the sense that both of them are people.

 

[Belz...]

I see...I get derided for using biased sources and told I need neutral sources but a story with this headline:

Hey, don't blame me for what other people tell you. I'm just saying that your own source gives that site a high factual rating.

 

[xjx388]

Hey, don't blame me for what other people tell you. I'm just saying that your own source gives that site a high factual rating.

...but mentions that they tend to use loaded words with a left-leaning tilt. As I pointed out.

 

[Frank Newgent]

Oh yay, a sex joke.

Anyway, my bad. I meant that Trump is like a master baker in the sense that both of them are people.

There are those that think I am a very stable genius, OK?

 

[Belz...]

...but mentions that they tend to use loaded words with a left-leaning tilt. As I pointed out.

You implied that they were not trustworthy and asked the other poster to do better. I am pointing out that that was wrong. They are left-leaning but reliable, according to your own source.

 

[Cainkane1]

I've presented this challenge in a couple of other threads; no one chose to take me up on it. I claim what the title says. For starters, I've never seen an American political party that so brazenly lies about such easily checked facts (and without a hint of evidence to support their position) regarding such matters as: Birtherism, Clinton Murder Spree, Climate Change, and Millions of Illegal Voters, to name but a few.

If you disagree, I challenge you to find me a comparable example of such blatant disregard for the Truth.

If what you say is true the Democrats are at least as bad if not worse. Looking into the characters of the Clintons or the lack thereof BIlly Clinton raped a woman in London when he was a college student. He has been photographed with a 14-year-old girl supposedly on a trip on the good ship Lolita going to an Island where men had sex with underage girls.

Trump may be crass but at least he unlike Bernie Sanders fights socialism whereas Bernie embraces it. Both sides lie without a doubt it's just that the Republicans do a better job of running America. Most of what you said was lies seem to be exaggerations rather than complete fabrications.

 

[Belz...]

If what you say is true the Democrats are at least as bad if not worse.

Two wrongs make a right-wing!

Looking into the characters of the Clintons or the lack thereof BIlly Clinton raped a woman in London when he was a college student.

You lot've been saying that for years without supporting it.

Trump may be crass but at least he unlike Bernie Sanders fights socialism whereas Bernie embraces it.

Yeah fighting the evils of spending money on public projects is the most important thing here. We'll tolerate racism, murder, fraud and treason if it brings us closer to that goal.

Go Republicans!