The Trump Presidency: Part 17

[Delphic Oracle]

Right. It's also illegal if Trump simply asked nicely without offering anything. The fact that he strong-armed them just makes it look worse.

They've already outflanked that.

I understand the entirely legit reasons why an already underway investigation into Russian election malfeasance was landing time and again on people in Trump's orbit during an election, but...that happened.

So there's another free whataboutism for them. "Obama used power to target me in the election, too!"

Back to square one.

They have this one mapped out.

I also really don't buy that most liberals think "oh heavens, we can't put some kind of implied pressure on another nation" and look for their fainting couches at the mention of it is the way it really has worked at...well any time in the history of human statecraft. Talking about the machinations of the IMF isn't a "heavy" topic in my circle, a Congressional Committee investigation being 9 times out of 10 a photo op is not a revelatory bombshell, it's familiar patter you hear a lot in medium size social gatherings with a bunch of introverts and social anxiety cases :9. Again, I'll admit I know "it's more complicated than that", but this is the tapestry of our nation and the value systems (and resignedly accepted faults) these messages play on.

So yeah, there's still a part of me that wants to spit on the idea of this being our moral hill to stand on when stood up next to things like selling us all out so he could be a puppet president and engaging in widespread torture of minors in indefinite detention.

 

[thaiboxerken]

They've already outflanked that.

I understand the entirely legit reasons why an already underway investigation into Russian election malfeasance was landing time and again on people in Trump's orbit during an election, but...that happened.

So there's another free whataboutism for them. "Obama used power to target me in the election, too!"

Back to square one.

They have this one mapped out.

I also really don't buy that most liberals think "oh heavens, we can't put some kind of implied pressure on another nation" and look for their fainting couches at the mention of it is the way it really has worked at...well any time in the history of human statecraft.

No, pressure is sometimes good, when it serves the nation. Not when it serves a criminal's intent to cheat an election.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Obama targeted Russians ... they just happened to be in contact with Trump toadies.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Obama targeted Russians ... they just happened to be in contact with Trump toadies.

Yes, I think DO knows this as well.

We all know that Trump has excuses and lies for all of his actions. Most people don't believe those lies. Those that do believe the lies will support Trump no matter what. Those that say they believe the lies probably don't even believe the lies, they just say they do so they don't feel so bad supporting Trump.

 

[Aridas]

What Zelensky thought, said, did, or wrote about the situation at any point is irrelevant. It's the illegal attempt by Trump. You don't walk away scot-free from attempted murder, even if the other person just laughed it off.

...If you're rich, a white supremacist, or a MAGAt, you very likely might, given the evidence at hand. But then... that brings us back to a simple but far too true observation. "Conservative" justice, in practice, is all about them benefiting from the law, but not being subject to it and others being subject to it, but not benefiting from it. "Liberal" justice is about everyone both being subject to the law and benefiting from it equally.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Zelensky: "I had a good, normal phone call"

Zelensky: "Nobody pushed me"

Now, I would like to propose we meet someplace here.

I will grant you that I understand a whole range of probable reasons why Zelensky made those statements that of course preclude them from them being the truth and Zelensky's missing or rebuffing of it having no material difference in a legal context anyways.

Can you tell me that you likewise understand that those salient details do not matter in orders of magnitude less real world impact on the political opinions and moods of the nation than they should?

What Zelensky thought, said, did, or wrote about the situation at any point is irrelevant. It's the illegal attempt by Trump. You don't walk away scot-free from attempted murder, even if the other person just laughed it off.

When you're done feeling satisfied about pointing out a detail I made specific mention of, please feel free to continue.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I think the Dems' calculus is that even the Supreme Court will not shield Trump from an investigation into this: the legal case is just so clear.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The entire reason for having Hunter Biden connected with them was to insulate them from American pressure. ....

I dare you to find actual evidence of that.

It amazes me how people just make up their version of reality.

Yes, Hunter Biden is a lobbyist. Somebody wants something. Beyond that post the evidence.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I think the Dems' calculus is that even the Supreme Court will not shield Trump from an investigation into this: the legal case is just so clear.

Even if Trump's SCOTUS shields him, the populous will see it for what it is and punish Republicans at the voting booths. Of course, the rigging of the elections by Trumpublicans might still overcome the American vote, like last time.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

The battle boils down to finding Republicans who can still be shamed ...
... not many left of those.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Right. It's also illegal if Trump simply asked nicely without offering anything. The fact that he strong-armed them just makes it look worse.

The other thing that makes this whole thing especially stupid is all of the 'dirt' Trump wanted has been available in the public sphere for years.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Yes, I think DO knows this as well.

We all know that Trump has excuses and lies for all of his actions. Most people don't believe those lies. Those that do believe the lies will support Trump no matter what. Those that say they believe the lies probably don't even believe the lies, they just say they do so they don't feel so bad supporting Trump.

Thank you for being able to note that I'm demonstrating retorts, not endorsing them.

I'm saying at some point the discussion is bigger than what did or didn't happen and becomes bigger than volleying links to Cornell's online legal indices. No issue approached from that direction has moved the needle at all and I see no sign of that changing.

As has been noted, there is a plethora of options to come at him with. Each of them have varying potentials to extract some appeal to a value system of some kind. Americans at this moment do not seem particularly invested in the value system of respecting the power of subpoena or untainted international relations. A lot of that probably in a resigned submission sense, which can actually make trying to make hay out of it land as "soooo last year, of course you're all on the take, do you think I'm a schmuck?"

 

[thaiboxerken]

Thank you for being able to note that I'm demonstrating retorts, not endorsing them.

Yep. I hear you. There was an SNL skit on last night that sums up what I think you're point is. Kenan's character says "ain't nothing gonna happen" because nothing has despite all of the illegal activity and immoral things Trump has done.

 

[Norman Alexander]

When you're done feeling satisfied about pointing out a detail I made specific mention of, please feel free to continue.

So kind.

Having establish that Ukraine is irrelevant, I'm sure you will agree that the Trump response of "Ukraine didn't mind, and anyway, Biden did it first pointy-point-point!" on such an important topic is going to fall flat on its face.

Either they have failed to grasp the importance of the situation and are treating it like yet another Trump-cheated-at-golf-so-what-he's-the-best-president-ever situation, or they HAVE grasped the importance but this is truly the best response they can think of (what options did they reject?!).

Can you see Giuliani spinning around out of control like the cartoon Tasmanian Devil? That's their strategy - distract by making a big noise over there -----> Of course, Rudy is going under the bus, even as he thinks he is saving the day. And Donny is not going to be able to MAGA! his way out of this quite so easily. The impeachment investigation is on, and all the childish tantrums and theatrics won't be stopping it.

 

[The Don]

Even if Trump's SCOTUS shields him, the populous will see it for what it is and punish Republicans at the voting booths. Of course, the rigging of the elections by Trumpublicans might still overcome the American vote, like last time.

I think you're giving the US electorate too much credit. 25-30% are diehard Trumpists and will vote for him regardless. Another 10-15% will vote GOP come what may. Unless the economy collapses, another 5% will stick with the status quo.

The only people who care about President Trump's possibly illegal activities are already firmly against him.

 

[Molinaro]

The other thing that makes this whole thing especially stupid is all of the 'dirt' Trump wanted has been available in the public sphere for years.

Actually, I think just the announcement that an investigation is underway would be beneficial enough. There's no doubt the announcement of new emails being found and being looked at, just days before the election, had a negative impact for Hillary.

Similarly, just having Ukraine agree to make mundane comments about an ongoing investigation into Biden, would be enough to have some influence, as well as providing a strong talking point at rallies.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I think you're giving the US electorate too much credit. 25-30% are diehard Trumpists and will vote for him regardless. Another 10-15% will vote GOP come what may. Unless the economy collapses, another 5% will stick with the status quo.

The only people who care about President Trump's possibly illegal activities are already firmly against him.

The people who care aren't Trump supporters. I think you overestimate those who would still vote for him. He lost the popular vote by 3 million last time, he'll lose it by more this time. Question is, can the GOP and foreign governments rig the election to over come a bigger vote deficit this time?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Actually, I think just the announcement that an investigation is underway would be beneficial enough. There's no doubt the announcement of new emails being found and being looked at, just days before the election, had a negative impact for Hillary.

Similarly, just having Ukraine agree to make mundane comments about an ongoing investigation into Biden, would be enough to have some influence, as well as providing a strong talking point at rallies.

I agree. Trump's move was ignorant and maybe based on some bizarre CT that there was more deep state stuff to be found.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I dare you to find actual evidence of that.

It amazes me how people just make up their version of reality.

Yes, Hunter Biden is a lobbyist. Somebody wants something. Beyond that post the evidence.

I don't have any emails where someone says "we are going to hire Hunter Biden to gain advantages related to his father being Vice President of the United States." I can admit that much :9.

I merely ask you to put yourself in the mindset of an energy executive circa 2008-2016 with a bajillion dollars at your disposal to hire any lobbyist you wish and if, in that context, you would have considered Hunter Biden to be "a" lobbyist.

 

[The Don]

The people who care aren't Trump supporters. I think you overestimate those who would still vote for him. He lost the popular vote by 3 million last time, he'll lose it by more this time. Question is, can the GOP and foreign governments rig the election to over come a bigger vote deficit this time?

There are also a bunch of people who don't want change and/or who are generally satisfied with the economy. They'll vote for the incumbent, regardless of party and aren't bothered by alleged scandals.

Regarding the popular vote, it doesn't matter whether the Democrats win California or New York by 2, 5, 10 or 20 million, it's whether Trump manages to squeak Florida, Michigan and so on by a few thousand. Voter suppression and an uninspiring Democratic party candidate could easily see to that.