The Trump Presidency: Part 17

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Delphic Oracle said:
Ahh, but there's a wrinkle there.

This is Schrodinger's Transcript. It is hard, firm evidence of the first order when we want to punch up how airtight the case is. It is nothing but some notes scratched together by several people's recollections when we want to make hay about the White House's lack of transparency about the matter.
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And yet, it is horribly incriminating despite being released by people who had motivation to paint the phone call in the best possible light.
 
Delphic Oracle said:
Food for thought:

Children in cages: not a good enough reason.

Working with hostile powers to subvert an election: not a good enough reason.

Self-enrichment and inside dealing: not a good enough reason.

Attacking Joe Biden: IMPEACH HIM NAO!

Democrats are a funny lot.
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Your “food” has as much nutritional value as a bag of stale Cheetos.
 
Weird. I just got done watching A Face in the Crowd and the parallels are striking. Minor TV personality hits the big time and craves nothing but "More power!"
Then (ok, the movie is over 70 years old but there must be some like me who have not seen it yet, so...)
he betrays his once-faithful promoter, and she keys an open mic at the end of his show, where all of America finally hears what he really thinks. He crashes immediately, and goes nuts.
 
Remember that Donny has no concept of "legal and "illegal". Nor even if it is good for the USA, bad for the USA, good or bad optics, whatever. His world ends at his nose and he is entirely engrossed in himself. So he just does stuff because he wants to, when he wants to, to whomever he wants to.

So when Donny says "ILLEGAL! TREASON!" blah blah blah, he really has no idea what that means. They are just a bunch of meaningless words to him, like "lackadaisical", and "rules of golf". He says them because other people say them about him. A foreign language for him, if you will.

So while we may be opinionating on the legality of his actions and the consequences thereof, he doesn't give a rats about either. He wanted to monster the Ukraine president for his own purposes so he did. And he can't see why anyone else should be upset about that if he isn't.
 
kookbreaker said:
And yet, it is horribly incriminating despite being released by people who had motivation to paint the phone call in the best possible light.
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Secure in the knowledge that Ukraine's President has his own problems enough and wants no part of an international scandal. His Foreign Minister took point already and now he himself is waving off any notion of concern.

So there's this huge problem where the Democrats are petitioning the court of public opinion on behalf of a plaintiff who is telling the judge "I really don't even want to be here, can I go now?" I think we're coming across like the stereotypical "ambulance chaser."
 
newyorkguy said:
Ironically, the article you linked, from almost four years ago is headlined," Joe Biden, His Son and the Case Against a Ukrainian Oligarch". The second paragraph -- remember this is from 2015, before Trump was in the White House, while Obama was still president -- reports on the problem with having vice president Joe Biden deliver the message.


So there was, and sadly is, an issue with Biden and the Ukraine. Just not the one Trump is blathering about. Further down in the article you find this:
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If you read my posts you'd see that I addressed all that.

Bottom line, the prosecutor Biden got fired (with other countries) was protecting Hunter's company, not prosecuting it.
I mentioned somewhere that Hunter has benefitted from being son of Joe but it is a separate issue and certainly Trump has no room to talk on that one.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
If you read my posts you'd see that I addressed all that.

Bottom line, the prosecutor Biden got fired (with other countries) was protecting Hunter's company, not prosecuting it.
I mentioned somewhere that Hunter has benefitted from being son of Joe but it is a separate issue and certainly Trump has no room to talk on that one.
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It certainly looks bad for Joe, but there is no evidence of a crime. The timing is poor for Trump, he wanted all of the Joe/Hunter nonsense to come out during the General against Biden. Now, Trump may have just won the Primaries for Warren and that's bad for Trump.
 
newyorkguy said:
Ironically, the article you linked, from almost four years ago is headlined," Joe Biden, His Son and the Case Against a Ukrainian Oligarch". The second paragraph -- remember this is from 2015, before Trump was in the White House, while Obama was still president -- reports on the problem with having vice president Joe Biden deliver the message.


So there was, and sadly is, an issue with Biden and the Ukraine. Just not the one Trump is blathering about. Further down in the article you find this:
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The entire reason for having Hunter Biden connected with them was to insulate them from American pressure. That it was ignored would be viewed as an affront (though might have served to "give them pause"). That it was Biden specifically that delivered the blow had to have been taken as a severe insult by quite a few power players in Ukraine (and that would be regardless of affiliations, even opposed forces would see that move and go "oh wow, that's...uh...I don't know if I like that").

I do not expect the Democrats will find any help from Ukraine in making the case they were bullied (ETA: to the further point that the Democrats will not find much help from Ukraine in pursuing their domestic agenda, to ask would be another example of that "American hypocrites" problem the article mentioned).

Plus the face-saving posture of "of course we weren't bullied."

Plus the very delicate balancing act between East and West they have to keep right now.
 
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thaiboxerken said:
It certainly looks bad for Joe, but there is no evidence of a crime. The timing is poor for Trump, he wanted all of the Joe/Hunter nonsense to come out during the General against Biden. Now, Trump may have just won the Primaries for Warren and that's bad for Trump.
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Or someone with even half-developed political instincts is calculating that whoever Trump gets into a spiraling feud with with will attract the "never Trump" core along with some "I like the underdog" follow-ons and so they (the GOP) can anoint the Democratic candidate in this way and they like their chances with Biden (best potential to repeat 2016).
 
Delphic Oracle said:
The entire reason for having Hunter Biden connected with them was to insulate them from American pressure. That it was ignored would be viewed as an affront (though might have served to "give them pause"). That it was Biden specifically that delivered the blow had to have been taken as a severe insult by quite a few power players in Ukraine (and that would be regardless of affiliations, even opposed forces would see that move and go "oh wow, that's...uh...I don't know if I like that").

I do not expect the Democrats will find any help from Ukraine in making the case they were bullied.

Plus the face-saving posture of "of course we weren't bullied."

Plus the very delicate balancing act between East and West they have to keep right now.
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That's not even the point. It doesn't matter if Ukraine feels like it was bullied or not, or responded or not (they appear to have made a joke of it). The one-and-only issue is that Trump made an illegal attempt to bully another country.
 
Norman Alexander said:
Yep, Ukraine is petrified.

https://twitter.com/hey_ashiwel/status/1175398628120301568
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from the continued history between Trump and Ukraine (canceled meetings, Rudi rants, etc.) is seems clear that Zelensky didn't play ball with Trump after all, at least not in the way Trump wanted.

So yes, he wasn't intimidated, knowing that Trump is a gasbag.

But as has been established, that is entirely irrelevant for the question of impeachable behavior.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Trump Tweets

Like every American, I deserve to meet my accuser, especially when this accuser, the so-called “Whistleblower,” represented a perfect conversation with a foreign leader in a totally inaccurate and fraudulent way. Then Schiff made up what I actually said by lying to Congress......

His lies were made in perhaps the most blatant and sinister manner ever seen in the great Chamber. He wrote down and read terrible things, then said it was from the mouth of the President of the United States. I want Schiff questioned at the highest level for Fraud & Treason.....

....In addition, I want to meet not only my accuser, who presented SECOND & THIRD HAND INFORMATION, but also the person who illegally gave this information, which was largely incorrect, to the “Whistleblower.” Was this person SPYING on the U.S. President? Big Consequences!
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Whistleblower Requests Federal Protection, Fears for Safety.

Understandably so.

Delphic Oracle said:
I'll also say that if any Democrats are thinking this is a move of solidarity
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I've seen no real evidence of this being the case. None.
 
Norman Alexander said:
That's not even the point. It doesn't matter if Ukraine feels like it was bullied or not, or responded or not (they appear to have made a joke of it). The one-and-only issue is that Trump made an illegal attempt to bully another country.
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Zelensky: "I had a good, normal phone call"

Zelensky: "Nobody pushed me"

Now, I would like to propose we meet someplace here.

I will grant you that I understand a whole range of probable reasons why Zelensky made those statements that of course preclude them from them being the truth and Zelensky's missing or rebuffing of it having no material difference in a legal context anyways.

Can you tell me that you likewise understand that those salient details do not matter in orders of magnitude less real world impact on the political opinions and moods of the nation than they should?

ETA: This issue means that every time we say "Trump", they say "Biden" and they now control the narrative of our primary and the general election.

While we merrily and excitedly prepare a court case for the American public to discuss on platforms dominated by troll bots.
 
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Delphic Oracle said:
Zelensky: "I had a good, normal phone call"

Zelensky: "Nobody pushed me"

Now, I would like to propose we meet someplace here.

I will grant you that I understand a whole range of probable reasons why Zelensky made those statements aside from them being the truth and Zelensky's missing or rebuffing of it having no material difference in a legal context anyways.

Can you tell me that you likewise understand that those salient details do not matter in orders of magnitude less real world impact on the political opinions and moods of the nation than they should?
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What Zelensky thought, said, did, or wrote about the situation at any point is irrelevant. It's the illegal attempt by Trump. You don't walk away scot-free from attempted murder, even if the other person just laughed it off.
 
Did Trump have any non-corrupt intent in making the request?

The fact that Trump took great pains to circumvent the normal channels of State Department and DOJ, and had his personal lawyer badger Ukrainians for months shows clear intent to hide his activities.

This is all so textbook abuse of power that it is laughable.
 
Norman Alexander said:
What Zelensky thought, said, did, or wrote about the situation at any point is irrelevant. It's the illegal attempt by Trump. You don't walk away scot-free from attempted murder, even if the other person just laughed it off.
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Right. It's also illegal if Trump simply asked nicely without offering anything. The fact that he strong-armed them just makes it look worse.
 
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