Cont: Man shot, killed by off-duty Dallas police officer who walked into wrong apartment p2

[TurkeysGhost]

Good opening arguments by the prosecution. Very nice presentation. But I'm not sure where they are going.

They didn't bring up any self-defense issues, so I'm guessing there is some stipulation that those issues can't be brought up in opening arguments. They are probably waiting on a hearing on jury instructions for that. I guess. I haven't heard. For some reason the commentators (I'm watching WFAA on YouTube), despite trying to fill time, didn't address that.

I wish he would have brought up the paintings on the wall above the couch, because that's a big stickler for me.

We found out that the bullet entered at a downward angle. But that is consistent with my theory that Jean was putting the bowl down on the ottoman and Guyger thought he was reaching for a gun. We'll have to wait to hear more on that.

I don't think the booty call is a big deal, because I don't think the issue that she was tired is really significant. It explains why she may have made the mistake of going to a wrong apartment, but the important thing is whether it actually was a mistake rather than intentionally going to the apartment. But I guess with he direction the prosecution is going, it could be a bigger issue. But then they are arguing that she did actually make a mistake because she was distracted, but that wasn't "ordinary and prudent".

He portrayed her as cold and calculating and shooting without retreating or calling backup or giving Jean a chance. That scores some emotional points, but I wonder if that will have any actual legal relevance in their arguments.

He seemed to focus on the idea that she SHOULD have known she was going to the wrong apartment. No implication that she did know that she was wrong before shooting. I don't know how that gets to a murder conviction. We'll have to wait an see, I guess. Which is a bit strange for an opening argument, which usually outlines exactly what the argument is going to be.

I think the booty call is relevant because:

1) shows that she likely wasn't fatigued to the point of non-functioning and incoherence. She's up for having visitors, she's not tired to the point of zombie-stumbling into the wrong apartment.

2) shows that any distraction that would be the root of a mistake of fact claim would be willful distraction on her part. I think this makes the mistake of fact claim less palatable for a jury, because she essentially distracted herself to the point that she is a danger to others. That smacks of negligence rather than unfortunate circumstance. Walking with your head in your phone into a strangers apartment and then getting scared and killing them is not a good look.

snipped for brevity

How could she not think that the door was open because a maintenance man was there? How could she not think that the man in her apartment was the maintenance man that was scheduled to be there?

Didn't the defense just shoot themselves in both feet?

Yeah, not sure how this helps the defense. Seems that a maintenance man narrowly dodged getting gun downed by this clueless cop. Her reaction is hard to explain.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Yeah, not sure how this helps the defense. Seems that a maintenance man narrowly dodged getting gun downed by this clueless cop. Her reaction is hard to explain.

Hey maybe the maintenance man would be white and so not so threatening that she needed to shoot.

 

[Drewbot]

https://www.courttv.com/title/9-23-19-tx-v-guyger-day-1-in-review/

You can stream the proceedings or watch clips here.

 

[pgwenthold]

This is where I think the prosecution is going, not even accepting there could be a mistake of fact up to the door.

I think it's a good way to counter a defence of mistake of fact.

Yeah, I think the case is that it is a blatant disregard of the facts, not a mistake.

 

[Belz...]

Caught that last bit of the opening arguments. Hell, that's probably consistent with her training. Neglecting seriously wounded "suspects" waiting for EMS and backup is extremely common. Had this not been a case where the "suspect" was murdered by the cops, Guyger letting him bleed out unattended would not be noteworthy.

So yeah, Botham died alone in his apartment while Guyger texted her partner about how she had a whoopsie. Got to hand it to the prosecutor, he's not pulling punches.

Good. Punch her. Legally speaking.

Why do I have this feeling that the whole thing is going to be so much worse than we thought?

Well, it already is.

I don't know, if you watched the video of the prosecutor he had his ducks in a row. The "mistake of fact" is going to be exceedingly harder to pull off given what he said. The view of the skyline is different, the amount of lights she walked by, the amount of times it labeled the floor she was on, etc. They just pounded on it nonstop. Plus the fact that she was basically distracted by trying to get some ass. She even spelled "come over" with a "cum" and a winky.

Yeah, mistake of fact my ass.

 

[Belz...]

"Defense team talking about a scenario where Botham Jean was advancing on Amber Guyger."

Wow the"Okay I'm gonna to make up an alternative universe fan fiction scenario, if you could judge my client in that instead of in the real world that would be just super" started early.

We've been at it in this thread for months. A sort of rehearsal for the trial, I guess. I hope you're not surprised.

 

[Belz...]

I have been known on many occasions to stay up past my bedtime, even going out and partying when I should be going home and getting some rest. Such parties are never as awesome as I expect, usually because I'm too tired and end up passed out in a corner after half a beer. I attribute such poor decision-making to the fact that I'm kinda tired when I'm making the decision to stay up late anyway.

When I'm tired my only decision making process is "sleep".

 

[JoeMorgue]

We've been at it in this thread for months. A sort of rehearsal for the trial, I guess. I hope you're not surprised.

Surprised? No. Annoyed, yes.

But there I go "blowing a gasket" at an attempt to legally piss all over a dead innocent person.

ETA: Less flippantly I am a little surprised they just jumped in that directly, I figured they'd try to sneak the "mistake of fact" thing in more subtly. The way they presented it make it sound absurd, but this is coming from someone for whom it always sounds absurd to so take it as you will.

 

[plague311]

The most strange thing from the defense opening arguments is that he says that Guyger did not have her dog in her apartment because maintenance was coming over and she didn't want the dog to get out or hassle the maintenance guys. She took her dog to her mom's place.

That would explain why she didn't think it wasn't her apartment because there was no dog there. But it obviously introduces significate other concerns.

She knew that a maintenance man was coming to her apartment that day. When the door was open and a strange man was in her apartment, why wouldn't her first thought be that the man was the maintenance man?

The "maintenance man in the house" is a hypothetical, imaginary, fantastical scenario we have talked about multiple times in this very thread. Now the defense is saying that this was actually a possible situation in this case.

How could she not think that the door was open because a maintenance man was there? How could she not think that the man in her apartment was the maintenance man that was scheduled to be there?

Didn't the defense just shoot themselves in both feet?

That's exactly what I said when they brought it up yesterday. It makes no sense to bring in this possible scenario that would have made her look even worse. She didn't get home at some ridiculous time that no maintenance guy would come there if there was an urgent situation, I think they said she clocked out at 9:30ish and lived a block away. The only difference I could think of is that the maintenance person would probably have the lights on.

 

[plague311]

Telling comment by defense lawyer Robert Rogers in his opening statement.

"Rogers said Guyger feared for her life and felt she had to use lethal force to defend herself." ...​

The all-important "feared for her life", which cannot be disproved and is always the money shot in a case where cops kill civilians.

And to make sure that the "cop" button got pushed;

... "She reacts like any police officer would who has a gun when confronting a burglary suspect," Rogers said.​

The prosecutor nailed pretty hard that policy for police officers that are off duty is NOT to engage. They're supposed to contain the individual and wait for backup. Guyger also never once in the phone call to 9-1-1 or her partner that she was afraid. She never said he was coming for her, or that she was scared or anything like that. Just that her life was over, she thought she was in her apartment, and she was sorry.

The other part that's going to hit pretty hard, to me, is that she didn't try any CPR or immediate first aid. The defense tried to bypass that by saying "well, she didn't really know what she was doing. She wanted to leave that to the professionals", but I was always under the impression that the Good Samaritan laws required you to do something. It's ****** up she was more concerned about herself than providing this guy with any form of the EMS.

 

[plague311]

And expert witnesses on locks

I don't think they'll call anyone on the locks. It doesn't seem like something the prosecution is going to argue with as they seemed to acknowledge that the lock didn't work properly at that time. Maybe the defense will want to drill it some more, but I don't think the prosecution has anything to add. They addressed it in their opening statements.

The marijuana person maybe, but the judge didn't seem to have much patience for it. When asked something about the marijuana she asked how it was relevant, which is how I feel about it. Nothing about weed would have changed this situation in my opinion.

 

[plague311]

9-1-1 call taker taking the stand first, summoned by the prosecution.

 

[ponderingturtle]

That's exactly what I said when they brought it up yesterday. It makes no sense to bring in this possible scenario that would have made her look even worse. She didn't get home at some ridiculous time that no maintenance guy would come there if there was an urgent situation, I think they said she clocked out at 9:30ish and lived a block away. The only difference I could think of is that the maintenance person would probably have the lights on.

Unless say they were working on the lighting and electrical. But the TV probably wouldn't be on.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The prosecutor nailed pretty hard that policy for police officers that are off duty is NOT to engage. They're supposed to contain the individual and wait for backup. Guyger also never once in the phone call to 9-1-1 or her partner that she was afraid. She never said he was coming for her, or that she was scared or anything like that. Just that her life was over, she thought she was in her apartment, and she was sorry.

The other part that's going to hit pretty hard, to me, is that she didn't try any CPR or immediate first aid. The defense tried to bypass that by saying "well, she didn't really know what she was doing. She wanted to leave that to the professionals", but I was always under the impression that the Good Samaritan laws required you to do something. It's ****** up she was more concerned about herself than providing this guy with any form of the EMS.

Actually few states good samaritan laws require action except for those on duty, they protect people who decide to give care that is not negligent from being sued. Being off duty she had no duty to act, and it isn't like cops regularly bother with first aid when they shoot some innocent bystander. Arresting them seems to be SOP.

 

[theprestige]

When I'm tired my only decision making process is "sleep".

I'm sure. But it's not criminal negligence to have a different decision making process than Belz...

Nor is having a different decision making process than Belz... really evidence that she was awake and alert rather than fatigued.

 

[plague311]

I'm sure. But it's not criminal negligence to have a different decision making process than Belz...

Nor is having a different decision making process than Belz... really evidence that she was awake and alert rather than fatigued.

Which is why her partner, phone usage, and text messages were brought into evidence. She never mentioned being tired, she texted to make plans later in the evening, and she spent most of her day on pinterest and facebook.

 

[Belz...]

I'm sure. But it's not criminal negligence to have a different decision making process than Belz...

No but it damn well should be. No but it indicates poor decision-making skills, in this case perhaps that led to a lethal outcome.

 

[pgwenthold]

The prosecutor nailed pretty hard that policy for police officers that are off duty is NOT to engage. They're supposed to contain the individual and wait for backup.

Whoops.

 

[Drewbot]

Body cam footage of first responding officers

Couch was sideways to how I pictured it.

 

[plague311]

Body cam footage of first responding officers

Couch was sideways to how I pictured it.

Tough to watch, everyone but Guyger seemed to immediately respond with trying to help. She seemed more focused on being "******" and making sure everyone knew she thought she was in the wrong apartment.

She kind of sucks.