Canada Election: 2019

[AnonyMoose]

I myself prefer to cast my vote based on policies and plans. If I happen to vote against Trudeau, its because I don't like his policies regarding the deficit, defense, etc.

I couldn't agree more.

But, keep in mind that that sort of mudslinging does come from all political parties. Even the Liberals have engaged in it.

I'm fully aware of the game playing. Which is why I wish the crap would stop, from all sides. I'm fearful of seeing our politics go down the same dysfunctional path as the USA. Our politicians are dysfunctional enough as it is, there's no need to toss even more asinine drama into the mix.



I have no idea which way I'm going to vote this time around. The only thing I know for sure right now is I will not be voting for the PC party like I have in the past, for one reason and one reason only: Andrew Scheer. The thought of having a Trump 2.0 running our country makes my skin crawl.

And if voting Liberal is the only way to keep Scheer from taking the top job, then that's what I will end up doing... even if that means keeping Trudeau at the helm (which I'm no big fan of, although I do agree with some of his policies) for the time being.

 

[AnonyMoose]

Nice dodge.

I didn't dodge anything.

Trump or Trudeau does not matter;you just basically said a candidate' character and behavior are not legitimate issues in an election.

I said no such thing.

Sorry, but your candidate got caught in a very embrassing scandle that, even if he is not a racist, certainly casts doubts about his judgement and his character, and that is legit issue in any election.

He's not "my candidate". This isn't US politics, I don't do dogmatic worshipping of any politician.

I repeat, would you make that defense if it was an opposition guy who got caught with his hand in the wringer?

If I knew in my heart the opposition person was not a racist, my reaction would be exactly the same: "Meh".

I am not saying this should cost Trudeau his job;I am saying his judgement is here is a legitimate issue in an election.

But that's just it, this whole blackface drama thing could cost him his job. I'd prefer to see a Prime Minister lose his/her job for actual legitimate issues... like screwing up our country's foreign affairs or killing our economy or dragging us into a war we shouldn't be a part of... because of his/her policies. NOT because he or she slathered shoe polish all over their face as a part of a themed costume party from 20 years ago.

This whole "only issues should matter" routine is always the cry of his supporters when a politican gets caught up in a scandle like this.
It is an asinine position, frankly.

To repeat: Trudeau is not "my candidate".


I don't worship at his feet. I don't dogmatically support him. I don't handwave his screwups because he's "my guy". If the blackface complaint was a legitimate racist act on his part (whether it was 2 years ago or 20 years ago), I'd be singing a different tune right now.

Stop trying to shove me into one of your US partisan political circus pigeonholes.

 

[Baylor]

I made a thread about Trudeau's love of playing dress-up and his affinity for it is abnormal for grown men. The boomers trashed the thread with the moderators' blessing. Recent developments vindicate me and prove Trudeau's bizarre behavior is deeply rooted, a major cause of concern, and affecting Canadian politics.

 

[Baylor]

I could forgive for the first offense; getting carried away in dressing for a costume party is something that is pretty damn common.
I would put it on the level of Prince Harry's Nazi Uniform fiasco:Stupid but forgivable since there was no real malice involved.
But if it is a case of repeated offenses.....something else is at play here.

When someone tells me he is a Nazi I believe him.

 

[Baylor]

Stop trying to shove me into one of your US partisan political circus pigeonholes.

 

[qayak]

I have no horse in this race, but just think the idea that a candidate's character and judgement should not be an issue is a stupid idea.
If anything I hope Trudeau wins;partly because I find Mrs.Trudeau so easy to look at...

This is what I said earlier. When a conservative says they will allow their elected members to revisit the abortion issue they are vilified but when the Green Party's leader says it, it is a non-issue.

So, I don't care about the brown face from a Arabian Nights themed party 20 years ago, or what Scheer said when he was in college.

I care about two things:

1- what the party's position on the issues is now.

2- which one would be the best leader.

The first one is why I can't vote conservative. That's as far as I have decided so far.

 

[angrysoba]

According to Bill Maher, Trudeau has been in brown face so often that Trump has put him on a no-fly list.

 

[Steve]

When someone tells me he is a Nazi I believe him.

Did Harry tell you he is a Nazi?

 

[Steve]

I didn't dodge anything.


I said no such thing.


He's not "my candidate". This isn't US politics, I don't do dogmatic worshipping of any politician.


If I knew in my heart the opposition person was not a racist, my reaction would be exactly the same: "Meh".


But that's just it, this whole blackface drama thing could cost him his job. I'd prefer to see a Prime Minister lose his/her job for actual legitimate issues... like screwing up our country's foreign affairs or killing our economy or dragging us into a war we shouldn't be a part of... because of his/her policies. NOT because he or she slathered shoe polish all over their face as a part of a themed costume party from 20 years ago.



To repeat: Trudeau is not "my candidate".


I don't worship at his feet. I don't dogmatically support him. I don't handwave his screwups because he's "my guy". If the blackface complaint was a legitimate racist act on his part (whether it was 2 years ago or 20 years ago), I'd be singing a different tune right now.

Stop trying to shove me into one of your US partisan political circus pigeonholes.

Well said. So many Americans only understand US politics and history. They have little idea how things are viewed in the rest of the world. Context is often a concept that causes them difficulty.

 

[Horatius]

Trudeau is damaged goods;don't see even the Liberals win the election how he can govern effectively.

There's no way they're going to change leaders in the middle of an election, so we're stuck with him. I'm kind of thinking the best result would be a Liberal win, followed by JT resigning to "spend time with his family".

That's another major factor about Canadian Politics that all the Americans here seem to miss: As others have said, JT doesn't have to be "our guy" for us to vote for him, because in reality, he's just one Member of Parliament out of 308. Even if he wins a majority, we're not necessarily stuck with him, personally, for the next 4 years. If he, or other MPs, feel he's lost the confidence of the house, he can resign as PM, and let someone else take the job. Hell, if the other MPs in his caucus want, they can kick him out.

And I have to wonder if the people making excuses for Trudeau would be equally saying it should not be an issue it it were a Conservative politician caught in the scandal.

Well, again, that would depend on what that person does about it. Scheer has a history of homophobic utterances, and has never apologized for any of that. In fact, he's continued to push his religious anti-gay agenda. So, yeah, if Scheer, or who ever, played the "Never apologize, never admit error" game, then yeah, he'd get a lot more crap than Trudeau.

The worst thing about blind party loyalty is you end up defending some really stupid crap out of loyalty.

And the worst part about not being blindly loyal is having people like you insist that you are blindly loyal because they keep ignoring everything you actually say in preference to the fantasy argument they're having in their head. Go back and actually read this thread. NO ONE is posting "Trudeau Right or Wrong!" crap, and at least some of us have self-identified as former Conservative voters who have stopped voting that way for various reasons. That's literally the exact opposite of "blind party loyalty", and yet it gets entirely ignored.

 

[Segnosaur]

There's no way they're going to change leaders in the middle of an election, so we're stuck with him. I'm kind of thinking the best result would be a Liberal win, followed by JT resigning to "spend time with his family".

Don't be silly.

Trudeaus don't just resign to spend time with the family.... they go for a walk in a snowstorm in Ottawa before resigning.

That's another major factor about Canadian Politics that all the Americans here seem to miss: As others have said, JT doesn't have to be "our guy" for us to vote for him, because in reality, he's just one Member of Parliament out of 308. Even if he wins a majority, we're not necessarily stuck with him, personally, for the next 4 years. If he, or other MPs, feel he's lost the confidence of the house, he can resign as PM, and let someone else take the job. Hell, if the other MPs in his caucus want, they can kick him out.

True... in the Canadian system you don't directly vote for the prime minister. But, between the lack of 'free votes', the fact that the executive branch generally holds seats in the house of commons, and the fact that MPs can be kicked out of caucus by party leadership (or their nomination papers can just not be signed), the fate of individual MPs rests quite highly on the party leader.

 

[Belz...]

Whatever people need to do, in your opinion, the point is the “blacking up”, not the impersonation of other people. That’s considered by many to be “beyond the pale”.

Politically, it's damaging. It doesn't change the fact that I find the offense taken at this sort of thing to be ridiculous.

There's a point at which something can be a symptom of actual oppression. Dressing up at a party isn't it.

He's not "my candidate". This isn't US politics, I don't do dogmatic worshipping of any politician.

American vs Canadian politics, man.

 

[Segnosaur]

I have no idea which way I'm going to vote this time around. The only thing I know for sure right now is I will not be voting for the PC party like I have in the past, for one reason and one reason only: Andrew Scheer. The thought of having a Trump 2.0 running our country makes my skin crawl.

And if voting Liberal is the only way to keep Scheer from taking the top job, then that's what I will end up doing... even if that means keeping Trudeau at the helm (which I'm no big fan of, although I do agree with some of his policies) for the time being.

So let me get this straight... despite the fact that you said you wanted the election to "stick to fighting over things like policies, solutions..." (And hence your lack of concern over Trudeau's "Blackface"), you are dismissing voting conservative not because of any particular policies they may have (and I admit, there are several I don't like), but because Sheer "Makes your skin crawl".

Hey, I totally understand... I mean, some might consider it hypocritical to want to stick to the issues when it comes to the Liberals but take a different standard when talking about the conservatives, but I certainly don't.

As for Scheer being "Trump 2.0".... its one of those "Easy to apply" labels without really providing justification.

Trump: Wealthy upbringing, Multiple failed businesses in his background, criminal actions in his background, lack of detailed policies

Scheer: Relatively humble background, no criminal background, has spelled out many policies in detail

The most negative thing to say about Scheer is his past pushing for social conservative policies (e.g. anti-gay, anti-abortion), but the stated policy of the conservatives (both under Scheer and Harper) was that both were settled issues and that there were no plans to re-open either issue.

 

[Segnosaur]

There's a point at which something can be a symptom of actual oppression. Dressing up at a party isn't it.

You can see something as 'bad' even if you don't see any outward signs of oppression.

The Liberals have shown no signs of 'oppressing' minorities since elected. But there are multiple reasons to think the 'blackface' issue is troubling... it is part of a pattern of behavior that shows a lack of thought on behalf of Trudeau, it removes a certain amount of moral authority the party leader might have (any complaints that he may make about bigotry will now end up with a "So you wore blackface!" response) and it tarnishes our reputation with politicians in other countries.

Now, is that serious enough to not vote for him? That's a personal decision. In my view, it would certainly not be enough of a problem to reject him.

 

[Segnosaur]

So it looks like the Blackface incident has affected the Liberals in the polls:

From: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...deliver-blow-to-polling-numbers-idUSKBN1W70ID
Before the blackface scandal, public opinion surveys strongly suggested Trudeau’s Liberals would beat the opposition Conservatives... The polls have now shifted and the Liberals are looking particularly vulnerable in Ontario, said pollster Frank Graves of EKOS Research...Conservatives would now win 35.5% of the national vote and the Liberals 32.9%, a Nanos Research poll released on Sunday said.

In slightly more recent polling information:

From: https://election.ctvnews.ca/race-ti...olling-in-ontario-s-three-provinces-1.4605683
After a weekend of movement among the top two parties it’s once again a tight race for the lead in national ballot support, according to the daily tracking numbers from Nanos Research. “The Conservatives opened up about a five-point lead at the height of the controversy” over Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau’s racist images, Nik Nanos said...In the latest national tracking numbers, the Conservatives came in at 34.3 per cent with the Liberals trailing behind at 33.1. The NDP came in at 12.8, the Greens at 10.6, the Bloc Quebecois at 5.8 and the People’s Party of Canada at 2.9.

So, mixed news for the Liberals... the good news is while the Conservatives took a lead following Trudeau's blackface reveal, that lead seems to be diminishing slightly. The bad news is that the Bloc seems to be increasing support in Quebec, which might eat away at the Liberal's base of support.

ETA: it should be noted that the changes may fall within statistical noise, so we'll need a few more polls to determine if this is a trend or not.

 

[Steve]

So it looks like the Blackface incident has affected the Liberals in the polls:

From: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...deliver-blow-to-polling-numbers-idUSKBN1W70ID
Before the blackface scandal, public opinion surveys strongly suggested Trudeau’s Liberals would beat the opposition Conservatives... The polls have now shifted and the Liberals are looking particularly vulnerable in Ontario, said pollster Frank Graves of EKOS Research...Conservatives would now win 35.5% of the national vote and the Liberals 32.9%, a Nanos Research poll released on Sunday said.

In slightly more recent polling information:

From: https://election.ctvnews.ca/race-ti...olling-in-ontario-s-three-provinces-1.4605683
After a weekend of movement among the top two parties it’s once again a tight race for the lead in national ballot support, according to the daily tracking numbers from Nanos Research. “The Conservatives opened up about a five-point lead at the height of the controversy” over Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau’s racist images, Nik Nanos said...In the latest national tracking numbers, the Conservatives came in at 34.3 per cent with the Liberals trailing behind at 33.1. The NDP came in at 12.8, the Greens at 10.6, the Bloc Quebecois at 5.8 and the People’s Party of Canada at 2.9.

So, mixed news for the Liberals... the good news is while the Conservatives took a lead following Trudeau's blackface reveal, that lead seems to be diminishing slightly. The bad news is that the Bloc seems to be increasing support in Quebec, which might eat away at the Liberal's base of support.

ETA: it should be noted that the changes may fall within statistical noise, so we'll need a few more polls to determine if this is a trend or not.

The hilite was my first thought when I read the numbers. It will be interesting to see poll numbers in a week or so.

 

[Segnosaur]

A rather disturbing trend:

From: https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/canada-election-signs-swastikas_ca_5d80f28be4b03b5fc88a3620
Hate Graffiti Has Tainted Candidate Election Signs In 3 Ridings This Week Alone
Swastikas were painted on signs in New Brunswick and Quebec ridings.

It appears to affect both Liberal and Conservative campaign signs.

(I'm assuming these were done by people on the alt-right in order to intimidate, rather than someone on the left trying to suggest 'these Candidates are nazis')

 

[Blue Mountain]

You can see something as 'bad' even if you don't see any outward signs of oppression.

The Liberals have shown no signs of 'oppressing' minorities since elected. But there are multiple reasons to think the 'blackface' issue is troubling... it is part of a pattern of behavior that shows a lack of thought on behalf of Trudeau, it removes a certain amount of moral authority the party leader might have (any complaints that he may make about bigotry will now end up with a "So you wore blackface!" response) and it tarnishes our reputation with politicians in other countries.

Now, is that serious enough to not vote for him? That's a personal decision. In my view, it would certainly not be enough of a problem to reject him.

Very much this. The problem isn't so much that Trudeau appeared once in blackface despite its racist overtones, it's that he did it at least three times. To me that shows a pattern of poor decision making, one that's led him to be slapped by the ethics commissioner twice.

I certainly wasn't a fan of Harper's policies, autocratic style, and science/climate change denial, but he didn't have a history of doing downright silly or tone-deaf stuff like this.

Still, I'm supportive of the policies, agendas, and goals of the Liberal party. When conservatives get into power funding for cultural things and assistance to needy people tends to dry up. Regulations get loosened, which often causes major problems a decade down the line. Progress on social policy comes to a halt.

Where I'm at is Trudeau as a person is an embarrassment, but fortunately not nearly on the scale of Trump or Johnson. I'll vote on the policies and hope Trudeau starts doing thing more prudently, or the party selects a new leader.

 

[Horatius]

A rather disturbing trend:

From: https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/canada-election-signs-swastikas_ca_5d80f28be4b03b5fc88a3620
Hate Graffiti Has Tainted Candidate Election Signs In 3 Ridings This Week Alone
Swastikas were painted on signs in New Brunswick and Quebec ridings.

It appears to affect both Liberal and Conservative campaign signs.

(I'm assuming these were done by people on the alt-right in order to intimidate, rather than someone on the left trying to suggest 'these Candidates are nazis')

And this is why I'm not overly concerned about Trudeau's scandal, or its ultimate effect on the election. If these things had come to light the last week of the campaign, there might have been an effect, but here we see the real difference. Trudeau's stupid racism was 20 years ago. There's a lot more stupid racism happening right now, and it's not the Liberals pushing it. Every time a nazi idiot draws a swastika on something, it points out this difference.

And being idiots, they can't stop themselves from doing it, either. Not for whole weeks at a time.

 

[AnonyMoose]

So let me get this straight... despite the fact that you said you wanted the election to "stick to fighting over things like policies, solutions..." (And hence your lack of concern over Trudeau's "Blackface"), you are dismissing voting conservative not because of any particular policies they may have (and I admit, there are several I don't like), but because Sheer "Makes your skin crawl".

Hey, I totally understand... I mean, some might consider it hypocritical to want to stick to the issues when it comes to the Liberals but take a different standard when talking about the conservatives, but I certainly don't.

As for Scheer being "Trump 2.0".... its one of those "Easy to apply" labels without really providing justification.

Trump: Wealthy upbringing, Multiple failed businesses in his background, criminal actions in his background, lack of detailed policies

Scheer: Relatively humble background, no criminal background, has spelled out many policies in detail

The most negative thing to say about Scheer is his past pushing for social conservative policies (e.g. anti-gay, anti-abortion), but the stated policy of the conservatives (both under Scheer and Harper) was that both were settled issues and that there were no plans to re-open either issue.

The highlighted parts are all your own assumptions and you putting words in my mouth. You're attempting to read between my lines and running with those assumptions in an attempt to give your argument some credence.

And I don't care if the PC party claims they would not change direction under Scheer. A party leader can quite easily steer their party in any direction they choose, particularly if that leader becomes Prime Minister.

I will not be voting for a party who's leader is a bible-thumping preacher who's most deepest inner wish (if given the chance) is the possibility to drive the country in a direction I don't agree with.

I'm not willing to take that chance. Period.

Religious ideologies have absolutely no place in Canadian politics. I cannot and will not, in clear conscience, vote for a party that stands the risk of taking our country ten steps backward.

No amount of counterpoints will change my mind on this matter.... especially when those counterpoints come from a place of dishonest discourse (you putting words in my mouth).