Remembering 9/11...Republican style

[johnny karate]

Holding one person to a standard that no one else is subject to is bad argumentation. Pointing that out is fair; it’s a double standard.

"Not calling someone out" and "Holding someone to a different standard" are two different things that you are rather disingenuously trying to conflate.

In order for me to be holding other people to a different standard, as you claim I am doing, you would have to provide evidence of me holding other people to a different standard.

It would look something like this:

Other people: I am making a claim. To substantiate this claim, I have provided two biased sources that merely repeat the claim without providing any additional substantiation.

Me: Everything seems to be in order here. I accept your claim as factual.

 

[xjx388]

Actually, a few of the sources didn't even have any information damning of Democrats. Why did you bother with them.

What you don't have so far is a neutral source damning of Democrats. Every neutral source you posted does not support your claim. Don't you find that suspicious?

I'm not looking for sources that damn anyone; I'm looking for sources that outline the bare facts, stripping out the pearl clutching, damnation and emotion, and all the sources are in agreement with those facts. Those facts are very simple.

In the present case: The Republicans held a vote when enough Democrats were out in order to get a bill they wanted passed. (Response in this thread: Boo! Hiss! Scumbags!)

In the lottery case: The Democrats held a vote when enough Republicans were out in order to get a bill they wanted passed. (Response in this thread: You can't prove this happened; this didn't happen! Whataboutism!!!!!1!)

That is literally it. I've given enough citations to support that those bare facts are true.

This thread started as an attempt to smear the GOP as evil. I've quoted the relevant posts that show that. I am not trying to damn any party; I'm only pointing out that if you are going to damn the GOP then you have to damn the whole political system.

My personal opinion is that no party really needs damning. This is the way stuff is done and has been done since the founding of the country. Political shenanigans are simply business as usual and it's stupid to bloviate about how evil the other side is.

 

[xjx388]

"Not calling someone out" and "Holding someone to a different standard" are two different things that you are rather disingenuously trying to conflate.

In order for me to be holding other people to a different standard, as you claim I am doing, you would have to provide evidence of me holding other people to a different standard.

It would look something like this:

Other people: I am making a claim. To substantiate this claim, I have provided two biased sources that merely repeat the claim without providing any additional substantiation.

Me: Everything seems to be in order here. I accept your claim as factual.

Ah, so you are saying you don't accept the OP as factual and don't consider the GOP to be evil because of this incident? Cool then, my mistake.

 

[xjx388]

If the claim that started this thread were only posted on a democratic lawmakers blog and other left leaning blogs repeated it, would you accept it as an accurate historical fact? I sort of doubt it, and if you did, you'd be a bit too credulous. I don't accept partisan blogs as strong evidence whether or not they confirm my worldview. I find myself regularly searching for corroboration in more established sources when I see a story from somewher like The Root or Mother Jones.

Jonny makes a good point that there are lots of newspapers and other news sources in NC. The state as a whole leans conservative as do many media outlets there. It would be very conspicuous if there were no coverage of this event in a more substantial source. If it happened as the blog detailed, this would be newsworthy and would certainly fit well within the coverage policies of many mainstream NC media outlets.

I'm on board with you that democrats are in no way immune from scummy actions. But I would be a bit surprised by such a large group of them hitting this particular low. That's a significant claim which should require at least the level of evidence you'd personally need to feel you were getting an accurate account of a scummy Republican action, no?

Well, I'm not from NC, I have no reason to doubt the basic facts of the lottery bill passage I've already found from my sources and I have no desire to pay for access and dig through archives of NC newspapers from 15 years ago to find an account that would be more acceptable.

And I've already said that I don't feel that the OP gave us an accurate account of what happened here. But taking the emotion out of the story, the basic facts seem to be correct: The Republicans held a vote where there were many Dems missing in order to get a bill passed. I think that was a ****** move. Just as I think the basic facts have been substantiated with the lottery bill: The Democrats held a vote when 2 Republicans were out because they knew they could pass it at that time. That was a ****** move too.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Holding one person to a standard that no one else is subject to is bad argumentation. Pointing that out is fair; it’s a double standard.

Call your whataboutism whatever you want, it is what it is.

 

[Cabbage]

I'm not looking for sources that damn anyone; I'm looking for sources that outline the bare facts, stripping out the pearl clutching, damnation and emotion, and all the sources are in agreement with those facts. Those facts are very simple.

Please don't lie to me: You were specifically looking for sources that damn Democrats in showing they were involved in unethical behavior. That's precisely your intention. Why must you lie? Let me be clear: I'm OK with you doing that. I'm aware of unethical actions by Democrats, believe me. I just don't appreciate you lying about it.

You're also lying about finding sources that outline bare facts: You haven't found any reliable sources: Only biased blogs by politicians with an agenda. Absolutely no third party newspapers have been presented to support your case.

Note: You know that other thread? The one about Kavanaugh where you claimed I hadn't thought my position through........And when I presented my position you just ghosted on me? Remember that one? I was trying to be civil and saying I didn't categorize you in with the gaslighting Trump apologists, but your behavior here (particularly the lying) makes me question my earlier judgment.

In the present case: The Republicans held a vote when enough Democrats were out in order to get a bill they wanted passed. (Response in this thread: Boo! Hiss! Scumbags!)

In the lottery case: The Democrats held a vote when enough Republicans were out in order to get a bill they wanted passed. (Response in this thread: You can't prove this happened; this didn't happen! Whataboutism!!!!!1!)

That is literally it. I've given enough citations to support that those bare facts are true.

No, you have not. The News and Observer is the main paper in Raleigh, the capitol of NC. Surely there ought to be a reference there. What you did was take the word of a NC GOP legislator, a person we have every reason to believe is agenda driven and biased:

Let me tell you one thing: You keep complaining that the GOP is being smeared as uniquely corrupt. I actually believe the Trump era GOP IS uniquely corrupt. There are so many GOP politicians spreading lies (such as Birtherism, Hillary murdered people in Benghazi, millions of illegals vote regularly and repeatedly, and climate change is a socialist hoax, for but a few examples) that I am now laying the gauntlet down: Find me comparable examples of such repeated, widespread, and dangerous rhetorical lies coming from the Democrats on a regular basis.

You know what, on this issue I don't think YOU have really thought your position through. I backed my position up in the other thread and you ran away. Can you respond so well now that I've challenged you?.

This thread started as an attempt to smear the GOP as evil. I've quoted the relevant posts that show that. I am not trying to damn any party; I'm only pointing out that if you are going to damn the GOP then you have to damn the whole political system.

My personal opinion is that no party really needs damning. This is the way stuff is done and has been done since the founding of the country. Political shenanigans are simply business as usual and it's stupid to bloviate about how evil the other side is.

I think the problem is you're clinging to an idea of what the GOP used to be and is now corrupted beyond all recognition.

Wake up to that truth already.

 

[Cabbage]

Well, I'm not from NC

Oh really now?

I was living in North Carolina at the time and I don't recall hearing anything about your claim. The GOP lied about Benghazi and many other things; why the hell should I believe them (or you) now? Sources aren't created equally. You wouldn't accept a cite from Alex Jones (at least I don't think you would) for example. Why should I accept a story that you have been incapable of finding third party neutral support for?

 

[Cabbage]

Oh, and xjx388, regarding the gauntlet (should you choose to accept it): Trump's lawyers have just argued that the president can not even be criminally investigated.

I invite you to find me of an example of Democrats doing such a thing.

TRUMP ERA REPUBLICANS ARE UNIQUELY BAD.

I invite you xjx388 (and anyone else willing to take up the challenge) to prove me wrong. I'm tired of the Trumpists here strawmanning me by saying my arguments claimed that Trump or the GOP were uniquely bad. I wasn't claiming that then, but if you're gonna force it on me, sure, I'll own it: I claim it now.

Now put up or shut up.

 

[xjx388]

Please don't lie to me: You were specifically looking for sources that damn Democrats in showing they were involved in unethical behavior. That's precisely your intention. Why must you lie? Let me be clear: I'm OK with you doing that. I'm aware of unethical actions by Democrats, believe me. I just don't appreciate you lying about it.

Lying? No, that's just well-poisoning.

I concede the possibility that the NC Lottery passed in a manner totally inconsistent with the way my citations made it sound. So let's review the facts as I understand them from those citations:

1)The Democrats did not have enough votes to pass the legislation.
2)2 Senators opposed to the bill took the last day of the session off.
3)This was noted by the President Pro-Tem of the Senate, Marc Baslight and a vote was called.
4)The vote was tied and the tie was broken by the Lt. Gov., Beverly Perdue.

I subscribe to the NYT so I searched their archives. Here is their blurb from their National Briefing feature of August 31, 2005. A quote from the relevant section:

NORTH CAROLINA: LOTTERY BILL PASSES The state is on track to cease being the last on the East Coast without a lottery. A lottery bill appeared defeated last week, when the Democratic supporters in the Senate failed to persuade 5 Democrats and 21 Republicans to switch their votes in favor of the measure. But with two lottery opponents absent, the lieutenant governor, Beverly Eaves Perdue, a Democrat, broke a tie vote. Gov. Michael F. Easley, a Democrat, is expected to sign the measure. Proceeds of the lottery will go to education. (AP)

That corroborates 1, 2 and 4 for sure. That's enough for me to connect the dots in my citations and conclude that they had the basic facts right.

For your edification, here's a link to a contemporary news report that corroborates 3.

https://www.wral.com/news/local/video/1091054/

You're also lying about finding sources that outline bare facts: You haven't found any reliable sources: Only biased blogs by politicians with an agenda. Absolutely no third party newspapers have been presented to support your case.

Ready to say, "OK, you had the basic facts right," yet?

Note: You know that other thread? The one about Kavanaugh where you claimed I hadn't thought my position through........And when I presented my position you just ghosted on me? Remember that one? I was trying to be civil and saying I didn't categorize you in with the gaslighting Trump apologists, but your behavior here (particularly the lying) makes me question my earlier judgment.

I'm sure I'll get over it.

No, you have not. The News and Observer is the main paper in Raleigh, the capitol of NC. Surely there ought to be a reference there. What you did was take the word of a NC GOP legislator, a person we have every reason to believe is agenda driven and biased:

I need a subscription to search their archives. Ain't happening. These were events 15 years ago. I'll also note that I posted a link to the North Journal, a state-wide newspaper comparing the two events which you dismissed earlier.

Let me tell you one thing: You keep complaining that the GOP is being smeared as uniquely corrupt. I actually believe the Trump era GOP IS uniquely corrupt. There are so many GOP politicians spreading lies (such as Birtherism, Hillary murdered people in Benghazi, millions of illegals vote regularly and repeatedly, and climate change is a socialist hoax, for but a few examples) that I am now laying the gauntlet down: Find me comparable examples of such repeated, widespread, and dangerous rhetorical lies coming from the Democrats on a regular basis.

Talk about unsourced claims! I'll need you to hunt down (in another thread obviously, where you will presumably make a case that the modern GOP is uniquely corrupt) unbiased sources for each of the charges you laid out above.

You know what, on this issue I don't think YOU have really thought your position through. I backed my position up in the other thread and you ran away. Can you respond so well now that I've challenged you?.

One thread at a time. I have thought my position through very well: Our political system as a whole is corrupt and that includes both parties.

I think the problem is you're clinging to an idea of what the GOP used to be and is now corrupted beyond all recognition.

Wake up to that truth already.

I have no such illusions. But it seems you do.

 

[johnny karate]

Ah, so you are saying you don't accept the OP as factual and don't consider the GOP to be evil because of this incident? Cool then, my mistake.

I'm saying I didn't just accept the OP at face value.

I waited for - and this might be a foreign concept to you - corroborating evidence before making a judgement.

 

[johnny karate]

TRUMP ERA REPUBLICANS ARE UNIQUELY BAD.

Here's how we know this to be true: Because of the extraordinary lengths conservatives on this forum are going to convince us otherwise.

 

[theprestige]

Here's how we know this to be true: Because of the extraordinary lengths conservatives on this forum are going to convince us otherwise.

Here's how we know this to be false: Because of the extraordinary lengths progressives on this forum are going to convince us otherwise.

 

[xjx388]

I'm saying I didn't just accept the OP at face value.

I waited for - and this might be a foreign concept to you - corroborating evidence before making a judgement.

And did you get the corroborating evidence? Because the OP has been pretty well debunked -9/11 had nothing to do with anything, just good ol' political chicanery.*





*I had a professor who told me once that I wasn't supposed to use that word because I'm Chicano and "chicanery" derived from Chicano or vice versa . . . random BS I was told growing up on the Mexican border.

 

[Cabbage]

1)The Democrats did not have enough votes to pass the legislation.
2)2 Senators opposed to the bill took the last day of the session off.
3)This was noted by the President Pro-Tem of the Senate, Marc Baslight and a vote was called.
4)The vote was tied and the tie was broken by the Lt. Gov., Beverly Perdue.

I'm heading out for the night so it's unlikely I'll post more in the near future, but I can't let this slip past. I'll admit I only half read your claim for the NC lottery. If it boils down to 1-4.......that's it??? Seriously? How the hell is that analogous? I don't even see a claim that senators were lied to about taking/not taking a vote. You do realize the claim of a lie was the primary issue, right?

Talk about unsourced claims! I'll need you to hunt down (in another thread obviously, where you will presumably make a case that the modern GOP is uniquely corrupt) unbiased sources for each of the charges you laid out above.

No. HELL NO!. If you're not aware by now that each and every one of my claims (Birtherism, Benghazi, illegals voting, and climate change) are true (we've only been literally surrounded by such claims for years now) then you don't even pay enough attention to handle a legitimate debate with a ferret.

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

 

[Cabbage]

Lying? No, that's just well-poisoning.

Oh, and you're still lying, I see. I know damn well it was your intention to find unethical Democratic behavior to contrast with the OP. That's obvious, man.

Now, doing that is perfectly OK. Lying about it is not.

It's a damn shame I can no longer found Trump apologists and GOP supporters capable of engaging in debate honestly.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Here's how we know this to be true: Because of the extraordinary lengths conservatives on this forum are going to convince us otherwise.

Back in the Bush days conservatives would at least occasionally try to make actual arguments in favor of their elected officials and candidates. I rarely agreed with them, but they were actual arguments put for that were in favor of them.

Now? We've got plenty of excuses. Plenty of distractions. Plenty of admitted full on trolling. It's been a long time since we had anything else.

 

[tyr_13]

Back in the Bush days conservatives would at least occasionally try to make actual arguments in favor of their elected officials and candidates. I rarely agreed with them, but they were actual arguments put for that were in favor of them.

Now? We've got plenty of excuses. Plenty of distractions. Plenty of admitted full on trolling. It's been a long time since we had anything else.

The best they argue now is the rationalization that 'everyone is just as bad'.

It isn't actually true for basically everything right now, in both kind and magnitude. The only reason it is the 'best' argument they have is that yes, some other people really do behave badly too.

Just (usually) not to this level.

 

[xjx388]

On second thought, why bother?

 

[xjx388]

NVM

 

[johnny karate]

Here's how we know this to be false: Because of the extraordinary lengths progressives on this forum are going to convince us otherwise.

I’m not sure that simply pointing to the blatant behavior of Republicans qualifies as “extraordinary lengths”, but hey, nice try.