Remembering 9/11...Republican style

[johnny karate]

Seriously, though. Are you disputing that the events unfolded that way?

Yes.

The basic facts are accurately recounted in that Republican legislator’s blog.

I've highlighted the problematic part.

1. It was announced that there would be no more votes.
2. 2 Republicans took the last day off
3. They decided to hold the vote when that became known.

That’s just history. If you think the legislator is wrong and things didn’t happen that way, it’s on you to show that.

A Republican legislator's blog isn't "history". It's one biased person's version of events.

And no, it's not on me to disprove an unsubstantiated claim.

So I'll ask again: Do you have another source besides a Republican legislator's blog?

 

[johnny karate]

Unfortunately for your side, there was no special pleading involved, only whataboutism.

It doesn't even really rise to level of whataboutism because the underlying claim is unsubstantiated.

What we have instead is an abandonment of the principles of critical thinking in a futile attempt to create a whataboutism.

 

[xjx388]

Unfortunately for your side, there was no special pleading involved, only whataboutism.

Uh....

Smarmy tactics. The NC GOP, were this a civilized country, would be banned from participation in politics for about five years.

So from what I am reading out resident conservatives are just with this crap. Got it.

They are basically crapping on 9/11 victims. And you are ok with that.

And that's the GOP for you.

So I just have one question.

Is it time to swap the GOP elephant for the GOP limbo bar?

Did it make those sissy latte sipping libruls mad?

Then why are we asking why they did it? We all know.

In the past, that wasn't necessary... both sides recognized that the needed to act civil, respect the processes that were in place, etc.



Now that the republicans have basically peed in the pool with their dirty tricks, and showed themselves to be completely untrustworthy, it looks like they might need to enact those type of rules.

Right wingers tend to have the mindset that if it's not illegal, then it's fair to do. And by illegal, they really mean if they can get away with it.

It's a waste of time to you because you know everything. And it's a waste of time to anyone trying to convert die-hard GOP supporters because they are textbook examples of cognitive dissonance. But to the marginal supporters, it actually works and gets their attention. I think people should continue to point out the hypocrisy and let the voters decide. Giving "other Republicans"(not The Trump, himself) a pass is the worst idea imaginable. You see it as fruitless. I see it as rewarding.


We don't care if they don't care. Less than 1/3 of the country identifies as Republican. It's the other 70% we're reminding, as often as possible, what a bunch of lying weasel scumbag hypocrites they're supporting if they vote for them on their lying promises or if they sweep it under the rug as you're proposing.

The quoted posts are arguments that it’s the GOP that are uniquely bad. That this incident represents the party as a whole. That right-wingers are dirty and unethical. That’s called “special pleading.” That the electorate needs to be shown just how bad they are.

I posted a story that blows up that “GOP=Evil” narrative. Both parties have engaged in this behavior.

Politics is a ****** business. Please don’t argue that your side is above it.

 

[Cabbage]

Uh....

The quoted posts are arguments that it’s the GOP that are uniquely bad. That this incident represents the party as a whole. That right-wingers are dirty and unethical. That’s called “special pleading.” That the electorate needs to be shown just how bad they are.

I posted a story that blows up that “GOP=Evil” narrative. Both parties have engaged in this behavior.

Politics is a ****** business. Please don’t argue that your side is above it.

While you're off doing your "victory lap" the rest of us are still waiting for you to support your claim with an actual cite.

Any time you're prepared to provide that, that would be great!

 

[johnny karate]

The quoted posts are arguments that it’s the GOP that aI posted a story that blows up that “GOP=Evil” narrative. Both parties have engaged in this behavior.

Yeah, you posted a “story” all right.

What you’ve yet to provide is a reason for anyone to accept this story at face-value like you and theprestige so eagerly did.

If the subject of this thread was so readily believed based on nothing more than one Democratic legislator’s version of events, every conservative on this forum would be here jumping on our heads with both feet, and rightly so.

Your pretense at being some kind of neutral arbiter of facts is a joke.

 

[xjx388]

Yes.







I've highlighted the problematic part.

In what way is it problematic? That’s what happened. No spin, just facts.

A Republican legislator's blog isn't "history". It's one biased person's version of events.

And from all versions of events, history is written. There is no version of that story that disputes the basic facts of what happened.

And no, it's not on me to disprove an unsubstantiated claim.



So I'll ask again: Do you have another source besides a Republican legislator's blog?

I feel like I could post any source and you’ll dismiss it because reasons...but here are couple more that outline the same basic events:

https://nsjonline.com/article/2019/09/house-budget-override-vote-similar-to-lottery-controversy/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina_Education_Lottery

Here’s a cite that includes a clipping from a contemporary news account:

https://lockerroom.johnlocke.org/2019/09/11/passage-of-the-n-c-education-lottery/

The pertinent part of the clipping:

“Senate leader Marc Basnight promised the chamber was done for the year and would not return. But Basnight, a Democrat from coastal Dare County, changed his mind on Friday. And with two Republican senators absent Tuesday, Democrats has the votes – with [Lt. Gov. Bev] Perdue’s help – to push through the lottery legislation.”

I’ve provided enough cites there that agree with each other and the facts as I extracted them from that “evil conservative blog.” I just know you will dismiss them but you look a bit silly dismissing reality. No harm in being silly though.

 

[xjx388]

Yeah, you posted a “story” all right.



What you’ve yet to provide is a reason for anyone to accept this story at face-value like you and theprestige so eagerly did.



If the subject of this thread was so readily believed based on nothing more than one Democratic legislator’s version of events, every conservative on this forum would be here jumping on our heads with both feet, and rightly so.



Your pretense at being some kind of neutral arbiter of facts is a joke.

Speaking of stories...any comment on the OP story not being as advertised? For someone so concerned with complete substantiation, they sure screwed the pooch there, huh?

 

[johnny karate]

Speaking of stories...any comment on the OP story not being as advertised? For someone so concerned with complete substantiation, they sure screwed the pooch there, huh?

Dude, your whataboutism game is garbage.

And that you thought you could somehow turn anything I’ve said into a demand for “complete substantiation” without anyone noticing just makes me embarrassed for you.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Ah, yes! The old UNIQUELY gambit. Wasn't it Ziggurat who got ten pages of whataboutism (covering multiple decades, if not complete centuries) out of a similar straw man claim? I'm pretty sure it was in defense of Trump, but the argument was "Show that Trump is Uniquely more __________ (evil, incompetent, a liar, whatever...).

It may be a fine point of grammar and vocabulary, but the argument is not that the North Carolina GOP is UNIQUELY scummy, but that the North Carolina GOP is SPECIFICALLY scummy,... in this case. The fact that LaGuardia did similar tricks in NYC or Huey Long in Louisiana has no bearing whatsoever. Was the GOP action in this case scummy? Yes, it was.

 

[johnny karate]

I feel like I could post any source and you’ll dismiss it because reasons...

Translation: I can’t find a single neutral source for this event I’m claiming is a matter of public record, so I’m going to make it your fault for pointing out that I’ve got nothing.

but here are couple more that outline the same basic events:

Yes, let’s continue with the charade that you had all these sources to choose from and you just randomly settled on these.

https://nsjonline.com/article/2019/09/house-budget-override-vote-similar-to-lottery-controversy/

Does not confirm the claim that the Democrats deceived the Republicans.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina_Education_Lottery

Does not confirm... well, anything.

Here’s a cite that includes a clipping from a contemporary news account:

https://lockerroom.johnlocke.org/2019/09/11/passage-of-the-n-c-education-lottery/

Another blog. With a scan of a newspaper clipping that I guess we’re just supposed to believe is legitimate.

I’ve provided enough cites there that agree with each other and the facts as I extracted them from that “evil conservative blog.”

A blog and then another blog but this time with a photocopy of some smalltown newspaper article that may or may not be real.

Yeah, real slam dunk.

North Carolina has a lot of newspapers.

Why is it that you can’t find a single one of them that covered this historical event in a way that substantiates those two blogs you dredged up from the bowels of the internet?

 

[xjx388]

Translation: I can’t find a single neutral source for this event I’m claiming is a matter of public record, so I’m going to make it your fault for pointing out that I’ve got nothing.


Yes, let’s continue with the charade that you had all these sources to choose from and you just randomly settled on these.

https://nsjonline.com/article/2019/09/house-budget-override-vote-similar-to-lottery-controversy/

Does not confirm the claim that the Democrats deceived the Republicans.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina_Education_Lottery

Does not confirm... well, anything


Another blog. With a scan of a newspaper clipping that I guess we’re just supposed to believe is legitimate.


A blog and then another blog but this time with a photocopy of some smalltown newspaper article that may or may not be real.

Yeah, real slam dunk.

Called it! I could find any source and if it makes the Dems look bad you’ll just insinuate it’s made up. I live in reality where the GOP makes scummy moves . . . and so do the Dems.

North Carolina has a lot of newspapers.

Why is it that you can’t find a single one of them that covered this historical event in a way that substantiates those two blogs you dredged up from the bowels of the internet?

Hey, you can live in your fantasy world believing that one side is evil and the other is the epitome of virtue; no skin off my back. I really don’t care if you dismiss my sources -which all corroborate the events that occurred. Your contention is that the events detailed in those sources didn’t occur in that way. I’ll wait for your sources that back that contention . . . But I won’t hold my breath because I know what I’ll get: more genetic fallicies and general deflection.

 

[xjx388]

Ah, yes! The old UNIQUELY gambit. Wasn't it Ziggurat who got ten pages of whataboutism (covering multiple decades, if not complete centuries) out of a similar straw man claim? I'm pretty sure it was in defense of Trump, but the argument was "Show that Trump is Uniquely more __________ (evil, incompetent, a liar, whatever...).

It may be a fine point of grammar and vocabulary, but the argument is not that the North Carolina GOP is UNIQUELY scummy, but that the North Carolina GOP is SPECIFICALLY scummy,... in this case. The fact that LaGuardia did similar tricks in NYC or Huey Long in Louisiana has no bearing whatsoever. Was the GOP action in this case scummy? Yes, it was.

I posted a list of quotes where the argument was clearly the GOP as a whole is scummy. Two of them were yours. I'll remind you:

Smarmy tactics. The NC GOP, were this a civilized country, would be banned from participation in politics for about five years.

. . .

It's a waste of time to you because you know everything. And it's a waste of time to anyone trying to convert die-hard GOP supporters because they are textbook examples of cognitive dissonance. But to the marginal supporters, it actually works and gets their attention. I think people should continue to point out the hypocrisy and let the voters decide. Giving "other Republicans"(not The Trump, himself) a pass is the worst idea imaginable. You see it as fruitless. I see it as rewarding.


We don't care if they don't care. Less than 1/3 of the country identifies as Republican. It's the other 70% we're reminding, as often as possible, what a bunch of lying weasel scumbag hypocrites they're supporting if they vote for them on their lying promises or if they sweep it under the rug as you're proposing.

Here you are making it clear that the whole GOP is "a bunch of lying weasel scumbag hypocrites," GOP supporters are "textbook examples of cognitive dissonance," and in a civilized country the actions of the NC GOP here would merit a "[ban] from participation in politics for about five years." All in response this one ****** move. So yes, it's pretty clear that you think the GOP is pretty dang bad when it comes to supporting lying weaselly scumbag moves.

It is perfectly germane to therefore ask you: Should the Dems have been banned for the way they passed the lottery bill? Are the dems lying weaselly scumbags? Are Dem supporters examples of cognitive dissonance, especially given their overblown response to this move?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

"If I prove you're a hypocrite that means I'm in the right morally, factually correct, and that the problem we were working to solve is no longer a problem" is destroying all levels of political discourse.

Too true .

 

[Cavemonster]

Called it! I could find any source and if it makes the Dems look bad you’ll just insinuate it’s made up.

If the claim that started this thread were only posted on a democratic lawmakers blog and other left leaning blogs repeated it, would you accept it as an accurate historical fact? I sort of doubt it, and if you did, you'd be a bit too credulous. I don't accept partisan blogs as strong evidence whether or not they confirm my worldview. I find myself regularly searching for corroboration in more established sources when I see a story from somewher like The Root or Mother Jones.

Jonny makes a good point that there are lots of newspapers and other news sources in NC. The state as a whole leans conservative as do many media outlets there. It would be very conspicuous if there were no coverage of this event in a more substantial source. If it happened as the blog detailed, this would be newsworthy and would certainly fit well within the coverage policies of many mainstream NC media outlets.

I'm on board with you that democrats are in no way immune from scummy actions. But I would be a bit surprised by such a large group of them hitting this particular low. That's a significant claim which should require at least the level of evidence you'd personally need to feel you were getting an accurate account of a scummy Republican action, no?

 

[xjx388]

Dude, your whataboutism game is garbage.

And that you thought you could somehow turn anything I’ve said into a demand for “complete substantiation” without anyone noticing just makes me embarrassed for you.

You've impeached every one of my sources as biased and keep asking for more. Yet you have accepted the OP without question. So let me ask the obvious question: why should we believe the OP source? The N&O is a liberal rag and the story had mostly outraged quotes of obviously biased Democratic senators. Indeed, as the story developed, it became apparent that the whole "Remembering 9/11 . . . Republican Style," angle was bogus. Why didn't you call out the OP for that hyperbolic pearl clutching?

So yes, I'm held to a standard of substantiation that you don't apply to anyone else.

 

[Cabbage]

You've impeached every one of my sources as biased and keep asking for more.

Actually, a few of the sources didn't even have any information damning of Democrats. Why did you bother with them.

What you don't have so far is a neutral source damning of Democrats. Every neutral source you posted does not support your claim. Don't you find that suspicious?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Why didn't you call out the OP for that hyperbolic pearl clutching?

*Very slowly* Because calling out every example of something is not a pre-requisite for calling out any specific example of it, even if the isn't "unique" no matter how much you want it to be.

OTHER PEOPLE BEING WRONG DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT.

"Hypocrisy" isn't a natural force that balances out like magnetism or thermodynamics.

 

[xjx388]

*Very slowly* Because calling out every example of something is not a pre-requisite for calling out any specific example of it, even if the isn't "unique" no matter how much you want it to be.

OTHER PEOPLE BEING WRONG DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT.

"Hypocrisy" isn't a natural force that balances out like magnetism or thermodynamics.

Holding one person to a standard that no one else is subject to is bad argumentation. Pointing that out is fair; it’s a double standard.

 

[johnny karate]

Called it! I could find any source and if it makes the Dems look bad you’ll just insinuate it’s made up. I live in reality where the GOP makes scummy moves . . . and so do the Dems.

Yes, but in your reality the threshold for evidence required for you to believe Democrats did something scummy is considerably lower.

Hey, you can live in your fantasy world believing that one side is evil and the other is the epitome of virtue; no skin off my back.

Following up a tragic display of poor critical thinking with a lazy strawman doesn't help your case.

I really don’t care if you dismiss my sources -which all corroborate the events that occurred. Your contention is that the events detailed in those sources didn’t occur in that way. I’ll wait for your sources that back that contention . . . But I won’t hold my breath because I know what I’ll get: more genetic fallicies and general deflection.

Your "sources" are two right-wing blogs. That you think unsubstantiated claims made in some random blog require refutation is laughable.

And what's sad is that you could only find two.

I can probably find more sources that confirm that existence of Bigfoot.

Meanwhile, this event which you claim is a historical fact somehow went unnoticed by the every media outlet in North Carolina.

 

[johnny karate]

You've impeached every one of my sources as biased and keep asking for more.

"Every one of your sources" = Two right-wing blogs.

Yet you have accepted the OP without question.

Where have I done that?

So let me ask the obvious question: why should we believe the OP source? The N&O is a liberal rag and the story had mostly outraged quotes of obviously biased Democratic senators. Indeed, as the story developed, it became apparent that the whole "Remembering 9/11 . . . Republican Style," angle was bogus. Why didn't you call out the OP for that hyperbolic pearl clutching?

I guess for the same reason that you don't police the forum for every inaccurate claim?

Also, multiple people beat me to it:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12817889&highlight=9/11#post12817889

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12818209&highlight=9/11#post12818209

Also, the person making the original claim didn't defend it tooth and nail after the clarification was provided.

Also, pointing the finger at someone else's false or misleading claim doesn't excuse you from your own.

So yes, I'm held to a standard of substantiation that you don't apply to anyone else.

Well, you're not.

But it wouldn't matter if you were. The substantiation you provided would still be a joke.