The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 29

[Stacyhs]

I use to be embarrassed about it I when I made a public mistake But there really is nothing to be embarrassed about. Now, I just laugh it off. Being wrong doesn't make you stupid, it just means you're misinformed or that you made a miscalculation.

When growing up my father use to say often "if you're not making mistakes you're not learning." And I'm convinced he was right.

I want to be told I am wrong every time I am and as soon as possible. That way I don't have to go around being wrong. If you keep making the same error over and over you're only compounding the mistake. Much better to nip it in the bud.

One of my biggest mistakes I've made in my life is not understanding that most other people don't feel that way and absolutely hate being corrected. It's one of the fastest ways to alienate others. It's necessary some times but unless it is, we shouldn't do it. I think this is sad, but it's definitely true.

I agree. If I've got toilet paper stuck to my shoe, please tell me so I can be embarrassed for a short time rather than making a fool of myself all day long as it trails behind me.

I have a relative who constantly mispronounces "mischievous" as "mischeeveeous". Rather than correct her openly, I just agreed with her by saying "Oh, my. That really was mischievous!", only correctly pronouncing the word. She then tried to correct my pronunciation. I said no, that is correct. She disagreed again so I said to look it up in the dictionary. We did but even then, she said "mischeeveeous" is an accepted alternate pronunciation. I said to find me a dictionary that has that as an alternative and I'll agree. She couldn't. To this day she still says it incorrectly.

 

[acbytesla]

I agree. If I've got toilet paper stuck to my shoe, please tell me so I can be embarrassed for a short time rather than making a fool of myself all day long as it trails behind me.

I have a relative who constantly mispronounces "mischievous" as "mischeeveeous". Rather than correct her openly, I just agreed with her by saying "Oh, my. That really was mischievous!", only correctly pronouncing the word. She then tried to correct my pronunciation. I said no, that is correct. She disagreed again so I said to look it up in the dictionary. We did but even then, she said "mischeeveeous" is an accepted alternate pronunciation. I said to find me a dictionary that has that as an alternative and I'll agree. She couldn't. To this day she still says it incorrectly.

Here's the thing about words. While there may be such a thing as standard grammar. That just means the way it has been written or said in the past. But words don't have correct pronunciations or definitions only usages. You are right from a traditional grammar perspective but mis-chee vee-us is the way a great many people pronounce it. Her mistake is so common it borders on being standard. This is how languages evolve.

There are lots of English words that are pronounced differently depending on where you are from. All you can say is that someone's definition or pronunciation isn't common, but that doesn't mean it won't be some day. Perhaps you were told when you were a kid, there is no such word as "ain't" because it's not in the dictionary. (I was) Well guess what? It is today. Another example, people have been using the word "literally" wrong for so long it is now considered right.

 

[Stacyhs]

Here's the thing about words. While there may be such a thing as standard grammar. That just means the way it has been written or said in the past. But pronunciations like definitions don't have correct pronunciations or definitions only usages. You are right from a traditional grammar perspective but mis-chee vee-us is the way a great many people pronounce it. Her mistake is so common it borders on being standard. This is how languages evolve.

There are lots of English words that are pronounced differently depending on where you are from. All you can say is that someone's definition or pronunciation isn't common, but that doesn't mean it won't be some day. Perhaps you were told when you were a kid, there is no such word as "ain't" because it's not in the dictionary. (I was) Well guess what? It is today. Another example, people have been using the word "literally" wrong for so long it now considered right.

I agree that language evolves. For example, it's become acceptable to say "long lived" with "lived" pronounced as in 'He lived in Ohio". The original rhymed with "dived". But you still don't use 'ain't' formally. It may be acceptable in certain situations in everyday talk such as "Say it ain't so!" but it is never used formally. "Mischeeveeous" may be on its way to being formally accepted, but it ain't there yet.

My initial point was that my relative just would not accept that her pronunciation is NOT in the dictionary and it not considered correct. If I discover I'm mispronouncing a word, I want to correct it, not continue out of sheer stubbornness because I don't want to accept I'm wrong.

 

[acbytesla]

I agree that language evolves. For example, it's become acceptable to say "long lived" with "lived" pronounced as in 'He lived in Ohio". The original rhymed with "dived". But you still don't use 'ain't' formally. It may be acceptable in certain situations in everyday talk such as "Say it ain't so!" but it is never used formally. "Mischeeveeous" may be on its way to being formally accepted, but it ain't there yet.

My initial point was that my relative just would not accept that her pronunciation is NOT in the dictionary and it not considered correct. If I discover I'm mispronouncing a word, I want to correct it, not continue out of sheer stubbornness because I don't want to accept I'm wrong.

I'm not a big fan of "formal". I'm reminded of how Mark Twain had a huge problem with editors correcting his prose.

 

[Stacyhs]

I'm not a big fan of "formal". I'm reminded of how Mark Twain had a huge problem with editors correcting his prose.

Twain was in a league all his own.

 

[acbytesla]

Twain was in a league all his own.

Yes he was.

I have to admit I find your picadillo on this word to be amusing as I grew up saying this word like your relative. I looked up the word because I often heard both pronunciations and wanted to know the correct pronunciation. So while I know that you are correct, I also know that particularly in the United States you're very likely to hear either pronunciation. We'll also spell it so it has the extra syllable.

I'm curious. When you hear people pronounce it like your relative, does it affect you like nails on a chalkboard?

 

[Stacyhs]

Yes he was.

I have to admit I find your picadillo on this word to be amusing as I grew up saying this word like your relative. I looked up the word because I often heard both pronunciations and wanted to know the correct pronunciation. So while I know that you are correct, I also know that particularly in the United States you're very likely to hear either pronunciation. We'll also spell it so it has the extra syllable.

I'm curious. When you hear people pronounce it like your relative, does it affect you like nails on a chalkboard?

I hear it all the time, just like I hear people say "Her and I" and "His and I's" instead of "his and my". I may hear it a lot, but that doesn't make I correct. It may be sometime in the future, but it's not now.

Yes, it's like nails on a chalkboard to me. Just like people saying "pitcher" for "picture" and "coup de grah' for "coup de grâce" (rhymes with moss).
But before our posts get deleted for going off topic, let's bring it back to why we got off on this tangent: the linked article above and the inability of people to admit when they are wrong even when there is credible or even incontrovertible evidence otherwise.

I think the few remaining hardliners on TJMK and those who still post in any Knox related media report in order to advocate her guilt, are the "soldiers" described in the article. TJMK's "Front Page" is almost exclusively now opinion pieces focused on reinforcing that Knox and, to a lesser extent, Sollecito are psychopathic killers without any redeeming qualities who got away with murder. IMO, I think they're just reinforcing their own need to believe they were always right. It stopped being about "justice for Meredith" a long time ago and became "we can't admit we were and are wrong".

ETA: Out of curiosity, will you continue mispronouncing "mischievous" now that you know it's incorrect or not?

 

[acbytesla]

I hear it all the time, just like I hear people say "Her and I" and "His and I's" instead of "his and my". I may hear it a lot, but that doesn't make I correct. It may be sometime in the future, but it's not now.

Yes, it's like nails on a chalkboard to me. Just like people saying "pitcher" for "picture" and "coup de grah' for "coup de grâce" (rhymes with moss).
But before our posts get deleted for going off topic, let's bring it back to why we got off on this tangent: the linked article above and the inability of people to admit when they are wrong even when there is credible or even incontrovertible evidence otherwise.

I think the few remaining hardliners on TJMK and those who still post in any Knox related media report in order to advocate her guilt, are the "soldiers" described in the article. TJMK's "Front Page" is almost exclusively now opinion pieces focused on reinforcing that Knox and, to a lesser extent, Sollecito are psychopathic killers without any redeeming qualities who got away with murder. IMO, I think they're just reinforcing their own need to believe they were always right. It stopped being about "justice for Meredith" a long time ago and became "we can't admit we were and are wrong".

ETA: Out of curiosity, will you continue mispronouncing "mischievous" now that you know it's incorrect or not?

Absolutely they're soldiers and definitely not scouts.i see that in too many political discussions these days.

As for pronunciations I deliberately pronounce it both ways mis-cheev-e-us rhymes with a similar word with a similar definition and sounds better to my ear....sometimes. I hate to add this, but I definitely pronounce it coup de grah. It's not the correct pronunciation in french but in English it is just fine and is probably the more common pronunciation in the US.

 

[Stacyhs]

Absolutely they're soldiers and definitely not scouts.i see that in too many political discussions these days. As for pronunciations I deliberately pronounce it both ways mis-cheev-e-us rhymes with a similar word with a similar definition and sounds better to my ear....sometimes. I hate to add this but I definitely pronounce it coup de grah. It's not the correct pronunciation in french but in English it is just fine and is probably the more common pronunciation in the US.

Well, I'd strongly disagree that it's "just fine" as it's not only the incorrect French pronunciation, it's incorrect in English, too. See any dictionary. We don't say "coop" for "coup" so why "grah" for "grâce"? I think people get it confused with "fois gras". "We don't pronounce "bouquet" as "bucket" unless you're named Hyacinth nor do we say "fox pass" for "faux pas".

As I said earlier, I'd rather be corrected and pronounce it properly from then on than continue to mispronounce it out of stubborness. Whether it's right or wrong, we make a first impression first by how we look and secondly by how we speak.

mis-cheev-e-us rhymes with a similar word with a similar definition

What word is that?

 

[acbytesla]

Well, I'd strongly disagree that it's "just fine" as it's not only the incorrect French pronunciation, it's incorrect in English, too. See any dictionary. We don't say "coop" for "coup" so why "grah" for "grâce"? I think people get it confused with "fois gras". "We don't pronounce "bouquet" as "bucket" unless you're named Hyacinth nor do we say "fox pass" for "faux pas".

As I said earlier, I'd rather be corrected and pronounce it properly from then on than continue to mispronounce it out of stubborness. Whether it's right or wrong, we make a first impression first by how we look and secondly by how we speak.

Your mistake is that you assume dictionaries are authorities. They are not. Words do not have eternal definitions, pronunciations or spellings only customary usages.

I absolutely grant you that language makes an impression. Fairly or unfairly, people make judgments based on it. One can appear as a pompous Yankee or a hick from the sticks.

What word is that?

Devious

 

[Stacyhs]

Your mistake is that you assume dictionaries are authorities. They are not. Words do not have eternal definitions, pronunciations or spellings only customary usages.

I absolutely grant you that language makes an impression. Fairly or unfairly, people make judgments based on it. One can appear as a pompous Yankee or a hick from the sticks.


Devious

Current dictionaries are considered authorities on spelling, usage, and pronunciation. It's literally their definition:

DICTIONARY: a reference source in print or electronic form containing words usually alphabetically arranged along with information about their forms, pronunciations, functions, etymologies, meanings, and syntactic and idiomatic uses

(Merrian Webster)

As new editions are published, they include new words and currently acceptable spellings and pronunciations. That is why we refer to them. That is their raison d'être (not pronounced 'raisin debtor' )

One can appear as a pompous Yankee or a hick from the sticks.

Or educated vs uneducated.

Devious

But, unlike 'mischievous', 'devious' has the 'i' following the 'v' which makes the "VEE US" pronunciation correct. We don't say nerveeous (nervous) or grieveeus (grievous).

 

[acbytesla]

Current dictionaries are considered authorities on spelling, usage, and pronunciation. It's literally their definition:

I get that some consider dictionaries authorities. Some also consider the Bible, the Quran or the Vedas authorities. The ultimate authority are the people. Vox populi, vox dei.

Or educated vs uneducated.

That too.

But, unlike 'mischievous', 'devious' has the 'i' following the 'v' which makes the "VEE US" pronunciation correct. We don't say nerveeous (nervous) or grieveeus (grievous).

I get that. And yet one hell of a lot of people pronounce it mis-cheev-e-us.

 

[Stacyhs]

I get that some consider dictionaries authorities. Some also consider the Bible, the Quran or the Vedas authorities. The ultimate authority are the people. Vox populi, vox dei.

That too.


I get that. And yet one hell of a lot of people pronounce it mis-cheev-e-us.

And one hell of a lot of people are mispronouncing it. It may become acceptable in time but as of now, it's just wrong. When, and if, it does become acceptable, they'd better change the spelling and get rid of that pesky 'i'.

It seems to me you're spending a lot of time defending 'mischeeveeous' despite being provided evidence it's wrong. Which is exactly the point of the article.

 

[acbytesla]

And one hell of a lot of people are mispronouncing it. It may become acceptable in time but as of now, it's just wrong. When, and if, it does become acceptable then, they'd better change the spelling and get rid of that pesky 'i'.

It seems to me you're spending a lot of time defending 'mischeeveeous' despite being provided evidence it's wrong. Which is exactly the point of the article.

You don't get it. There are some things not worthy of argument. I pointed this out about myself. Correcting others is a fast way to alienate them. It's in I think the second chapter of Dale Carnegie's famous book "How to win friends and influence people". Picking one's battles was an important lesson for me.

BTW, I NEVER said that you weren't right. And you're not alienating me. I'm just having fun.

 

[Stacyhs]

You don't get it. There are some things not worthy of argument. I pointed this out about myself. Correcting others is a fast way to alienate them. It's in I think the second chapter of Dale Carnegie's famous book "How to win friends and influence people". Picking one's battles was an important lesson for me.

Agreed, which is why I didn't correct my relative. I just used it properly and she then questioned me about it.

BTW, I NEVER said that you weren't right. And you're not alienating me. I'm just having fun.

Me, too. A debate is not always an argument.

 

[carrps]

I agree. If I've got toilet paper stuck to my shoe, please tell me so I can be embarrassed for a short time rather than making a fool of myself all day long as it trails behind me.

I have a relative who constantly mispronounces "mischievous" as "mischeeveeous". Rather than correct her openly, I just agreed with her by saying "Oh, my. That really was mischievous!", only correctly pronouncing the word. She then tried to correct my pronunciation. I said no, that is correct. She disagreed again so I said to look it up in the dictionary. We did but even then, she said "mischeeveeous" is an accepted alternate pronunciation. I said to find me a dictionary that has that as an alternative and I'll agree. She couldn't. To this day she still says it incorrectly.

Oh, this brings up an incident from elementary school (from decades ago obviously) where the nun insisted on the pronunciation used by your relative. Drove me insane. Look at the word! How is it spelled???

We had a little test where we had to say whether a name was for a girl or a boy or both. My friend and I both said Carroll was a "both." And it is!!!! We didn't get a perfect score because she marked that answer as wrong. I can admit when I'm wrong, but I get really ticked off when I'm right and someone is sure I'm wrong.

 

[Vixen]

I agree. If I've got toilet paper stuck to my shoe, please tell me so I can be embarrassed for a short time rather than making a fool of myself all day long as it trails behind me.

I have a relative who constantly mispronounces "mischievous" as "mischeeveeous". Rather than correct her openly, I just agreed with her by saying "Oh, my. That really was mischievous!", only correctly pronouncing the word. She then tried to correct my pronunciation. I said no, that is correct. She disagreed again so I said to look it up in the dictionary. We did but even then, she said "mischeeveeous" is an accepted alternate pronunciation. I said to find me a dictionary that has that as an alternative and I'll agree. She couldn't. To this day she still says it incorrectly.

Yeah, that sounds like you. How incredibly rude to correct someone's pronunciation or grammar whilst they are speaking. What is it to you?

I have had ignoramuses correcting how I pronounce the word 'sauna'. You don't tell a Finn how to pronounce their own word, no matter what Merriam-Webster says.

 

[Vixen]

I agree that language evolves. For example, it's become acceptable to say "long lived" with "lived" pronounced as in 'He lived in Ohio". The original rhymed with "dived". But you still don't use 'ain't' formally. It may be acceptable in certain situations in everyday talk such as "Say it ain't so!" but it is never used formally. "Mischeeveeous" may be on its way to being formally accepted, but it ain't there yet.

My initial point was that my relative just would not accept that her pronunciation is NOT in the dictionary and it not considered correct. If I discover I'm mispronouncing a word, I want to correct it, not continue out of sheer stubbornness because I don't want to accept I'm wrong.

I know people who pronounce 'mischievous' (short middle syllable) as 'mischievious', which seems incredibly common even on television.

I found I was mispronouncing various words, for example 'garage' simply because of the area of Middlesex I grew up in. It was largely RP (cf Elton John) but had its own Middlesex idioms, which one thought was the correct one but actually it was the Middlesexers who were 'out of step' as it were. Tinged with cockney. For example, 'Friday' is 'Fri-dee', 'again' is 'a-gen', 'because' is 'becuz'.

Words that are considered incorrect in the south of England are entirely correct up north. For example, it is perfectly correct for a Scot to say, 'outwith', 'ye ken', 'bairn' and 'brae' to mean 'outside', 'baby', 'you know' and 'peninsula'.

I wouldn't be so unbearable as to correct any of them.

 

[Vixen]

Well, I'd strongly disagree that it's "just fine" as it's not only the incorrect French pronunciation, it's incorrect in English, too. See any dictionary. We don't say "coop" for "coup" so why "grah" for "grâce"? I think people get it confused with "fois gras". "We don't pronounce "bouquet" as "bucket" unless you're named Hyacinth nor do we say "fox pass" for "faux pas".

As I said earlier, I'd rather be corrected and pronounce it properly from then on than continue to mispronounce it out of stubborness. Whether it's right or wrong, we make a first impression first by how we look and secondly by how we speak.



What word is that?

The only thing that really grates on me is the form, 'my husband and I', I am quite at home saying 'you and me' or 'me and him' even if the word police think one shouldn't.

The thing about French words adopted into the English language, they do get anglicised. For example, the name 'Beauchamp' mysteriously to me is pronounced 'Bee-cham'. I had people telling me I shouldn't say 'via' in the Italian way, even though it is Italian but 'via', the cockney way (this was when I worked with a bunch off them in the City'), or 'eether', instead of 'either'. There was actually an office discussion about this. However, I will carry on saying the version I prefer. To my ears, 'eether' sounds horrible.

 

[Vixen]

Current dictionaries are considered authorities on spelling, usage, and pronunciation. It's literally their definition:


(Merrian Webster)

As new editions are published, they include new words and currently acceptable spellings and pronunciations. That is why we refer to them. That is their raison d'être (not pronounced 'raisin debtor' )


Or educated vs uneducated.



But, unlike 'mischievous', 'devious' has the 'i' following the 'v' which makes the "VEE US" pronunciation correct. We don't say nerveeous (nervous) or grieveeus (grievous).

I think you have the American penchant for 'rules' and this is because the US has so many different nationalities converging on it at different times, there was a demand for rules.

However, as acbytesla points out language is much more subtle than following strict rules.