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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 29

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Grow up and stop using childish language. Read the Chieffi report again. It clearly states that whilst the lower court (Hellmann) was within its jurisdictional remit to appoint independent expert witnesses, it erred in that it did not provide an explanation substantiating its decision.

"Stop using childish language"!?!?

Providing a link to the actual document and highlighting the part which demonstrates that the Chieffi panel wrote the actual opposite of your initial claim..... is "childish language"!?

LOL!

The little arrow to the right of your name above is JREF/ISF's way of allowing us, the reader, to review this mini-thread of convo between you and me. Anyone can use it.

The long and short of it, you made a specious claim about Chieffi annulling the Conti-Vecchiotti report, fresh from also claiming that the Italian Supreme Court had no right to dicker with evidence as accepted by a merits-level court.

Which is it? Are you misinformed or are you lying? Whatever.... it's clear you employ a double-standard, where you let your conclusion inform the way you reach it.
 
That's what higher courts do. They direct the lower court to correct its legal error by reassessing the issue in question.

.... and of the three specific items that the Chieffi panel directed the new, lower appeals' court to reassess, all three when the way of the defence.

Nencini convicted anyway.

Be that as it may, it is clear that the Conti-Vecchiotti report is kryptonite to the guilter-nutter, factoid-based case against AK and RS.

As such, so that all can read it, here is the link:

https://knoxdnareport.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/translation-of-the-conti-vecchiotti-report2.pdf

It specifically trashes the forensic-DNA work done by and under the supervision of Stefanoni.

What makes the Conti-Vecchiotti report particularly poisonous to any "guilt" case, is that it is (in broad brushstrokes) supported by ALL third party, forensic-DNA inquiry. Chief among that is Dr. Peter Gill himself, the father of modern forensic-DNA analysis.

https://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(16)30033-3/pdf

The guilter-nutters have only ever submitted two challenges to this unanimous agreement with the C-V report. One is Professor Novelli, who also conceded that Stefanoni's work had not complied with international forensic standards. The other I cannot remember, but the last time the guy's name came up, it was revealed that the guy had admitted to never having seen the negative controls.

In rebuttal, all the guilter-nutters can do is to make up stuff about what the 2013 Supreme Court panel had said about C-V. There it sits.
 
Another interesting thing I noted was that the chair in the bathroom was not in the same place in the video as in the still photo. It had been moved to the side of the sink. This is visible at 8:21. The clothing on the floor had also been moved. The still photos do not have a time stamp so I don't know when they were taken. What was the original position of the chair? Was it moved by the police to the center of the room or did was it there when they arrived? TMoMK says labels ALL the pictures as taken on Nov. 2, but no pictures at all taken on Nov. 3. I don't know if this is accurate or not.

This is a police photo of the downstairs bathroom window. Notice it is open.
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_716695d7999dedf326.jpg[/qimg]

ETA: notice the blood drop is on the outside of the casement rather than the inside. It makes more sense that this would be left there by an injured cat passing through the open window rather than being left by a person.

I agree that the apparent blood drop trace does look consistent with a cat with a bleeding wound - maybe on the ear, probably not on its paw pad - passing through the open window. It seems less consistent with the hypothesis that it was blood from a person with a bleeding hand wound.

According to Stefanoni's records, as presented in the table compiled in

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/blood-evidence-downstairs-apartment/

the window blood (Field Rep 0) was tested: 1) with TMB, found to blood; 2)for species (claimed, with details required for assurance of reliability not supplied, by an antibody or antiserum test), found to be from cat; 3) by quantitative PCR (in two tests), one of which showed no human DNA (Ct=50) while the other one showed human DNA (Ct=37). A DNA profile was apparently not run.

Possibly the human DNA apparently present in the second quantitative PCR test of this sample was from contamination.

A tentative conclusion is that Stefanoni did not present a DNA profile for this sample because she considered the presence of DNA in it to be a contamination.

In terms of the overall case, the above finding of apparenthe blade contamination in Stefanoni's lab on Nov. 5/6, 2007 in the window sample supports the argument that the alleged DNA profile of Kercher obtained from an apparent LCN level of DNA allegedly from the the knife taken from Sollecito's flat was contamination.

DNA contamination was readily detectable in negative (NO DNA) controls whose quantitative PCR was reported in Stefanoni's lab results, although she denied that there was contamination in her lab:

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/contamination-labwork-coverup/
 
The undeniable fact that Stefanoni and the prosecution suppressed all the raw DNA profile data as well as large amounts of other relevant data in the Knox - Sollecito case presents an insurmountable barrier to any court in Italy (a Council of Europe member state) issuing a legally valid final judgment, under ECHR case-law, that Knox or Sollecito were guilty of Kercher's rape and murder.

Denial of the original evidence to the defense thereby preventing it from challenging that evidence, followed by conviction based on a reproduction or interpretation of the evidence, has been found by the ECHR to be a violation of Convention Article 6 (right to a fair trial). For example, in the case GEORGIOS PAPAGEORGIOU v. GREECE 59506/00, the ECHR judgment found:

"37. The Court notes that, unlike Fitt, cited above, the instant case does not concern the concealment of evidence, but the refusal to order production of the originals of documents used as evidence for the prosecution. ....

38. As to the numerous other items of documentary evidence referred to by the Government, the Court notes, as the applicant did, that the documents in question were very diverse and related to other defendants or did not serve as a basis for the applicant’s conviction.

39. Having regard to the fact that, in spite of his repeated requests, essential pieces of evidence were not adequately adduced and discussed at the trial in the applicant’s presence, the Court concludes that the proceedings in issue, taken as a whole, did not satisfy the requirements of a fair trial.

40. There has therefore been a violation of Article 6 §§ 1 and 3 (d) of the Convention."

Some who attempt to follow the Knox - Sollecito case may not realize the significance - that is, the total lack of credibility - of alleged scientific or forensic results that are based on data that are found to be unreliable. In academic and government work, scientists who have been found to misrepresent their data or results or commit similar misconduct suffer negative consequences and papers based on such misconduct are generally subject to withdrawal from the literature. For example, see:

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-...fire-professors-for-research-misconduct-66352

Here is an excerpt from the above, illustrating the negative implications on the credibility of results or interpretations where the scientists did not (or could not) provide sufficient original data in support:

"The internal investigation committee produced a 1,000-page report and shut down Shi and Zhang’s labs on Thursday (August 22 [2019]). The committee found “several examples of falsified or fabricated data that were among numerous irregularities in seven grant proposals and at least 13 scholarly papers sampled from their work,” according to the UK [University of Kentucky] statement.

The committee stated that the researchers provided “very little” of the original data requested for the investigation and concluded that the data’s absence was “inconsistent with NIH or UK expectations and resulted in an inability to validate” how the data were represented in grants and publications, according to the UK statement. The findings were handed over to the federal Office of Research of Integrity, which handles misconduct cases that involve federal grants."

A more detailed press release on the above may be of interest; it is at:

https://www.uky.edu/prmarketing/statement-research-misconduct
 
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What? It acted correctly in deferring it back to the lower court that erred. However, as the lower court concerned (Hellmann) had been so egregious and defective in a fatally devastating way, it was remitted to a completely new court (Nencini) in a completely different region, away from the corrupt influences of the offending court.

Oh, boy. Another completely fictitious claim from you. The reasons the case went to 'a completely new court in a completely different region' is because
...Knox's defense team successfully fought to have the case moved to another jurisdiction.

According to the Italian news agency ANSA, Knox lawyer Carlo Dalla Vedova asked that the trial be moved from Perugia to Florence, arguing that there is a conflict of interest with the prosecutor, Giuliano Mignini. Dalla Vedova said Mignini, who was present in court today, argued the slander case even though he is one of the parties involved in making the allegation against Knox.
https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/amanda-knoxs-slander-trial-moved-to-florence/

Also, Perugia only has one appellate court so it couldn't be heard there again by the same court that had just been overturned:

In any case, the judicial saga is likely to continue for years. It will be months before a date is set for the new trial, to be held in Florence instead of Perugia because the small town has only one appellate court, which already acquitted her.
https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2013/mar/27/italian-court-orders-new-trial-for-knox/
It could be months before a date is set for a fresh appeals court trial for Knox and Sollecito in Florence, which was chosen because Perugia has only one appellate court.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/italy...nox-acquittal-in-murder-case-orders-new-trial


That is not a window that is a sealed unused door.

It has glass in the upper section. Try again.
It does not go unnoticed, nor is it surprising, that you fail to recognize your error that "Truth Calls' claim there was an easier way of looking out, via the front." Par for the course, innit?

Sorry, are you denying Amanda Knox ever claimed she was forced to list her sex partners and this meme was picked up by her supporters?

Why, yes...yes, we are. Some have claimed she was 'tricked', but never 'forced'. No one made her do it and she has never claimed otherwise. In fact, she has wrote in her book

In the end, I don't know if they made up the HIV diagnosis. It wasn't the doctor who said I should think about whom I'd had sex with but Argiro. It might have been that the test was faulty, or Argiro could have put the medical staff up to it so he could ask me questions and pass the answers along to the police.

Nothing about being 'forced' so give it up, Vix. You're wrong. I know you find it difficult, if not impossible, to accept that but the facts are the facts.

Nencini and Marasca were never on trial, were never convicted or sentenced and thus, were never 'annulled'.

No one said they were. But as LondonJohn did say: their VERDICTS were annulled.

No she was not an editor. She wrote the book. 'As told to' Linda Kulman.

She was a contributor as Kulman said herself (see her quote I posted earlier). Nowhere is "as told to" present on WTBH. Stop making things up. It's not doing you any favors.

You can see all of the 'cat' blood marks here, together with the crime scene photos. The chair was not moved. It is photographed exactly how it was found.

I see you subscribe to the Trump philosophy of "don't believe your lying eyes". The chair was moved. The question is when.





This is how supporting claims with evidence is done, Vixen. You should try it.
 
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Oh, boy. Another completely fictitious claim from you. The reasons the case went to 'a completely new court in a completely different region' is because

https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/amanda-knoxs-slander-trial-moved-to-florence/

Also, Perugia only has one appellate court so it couldn't be heard there again by the same court that had just been overturned:


https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2013/mar/27/italian-court-orders-new-trial-for-knox/

https://www.foxnews.com/world/italy...nox-acquittal-in-murder-case-orders-new-trial




It has glass in the upper section. Try again.
It does not go unnoticed, nor is it surprising, that you fail to recognize your error that "Truth Calls' claim there was an easier way of looking out, via the front." Par for the course, innit?



Why, yes...yes, we are. Some have claimed she was 'tricked', but never 'forced'. No one made her do it and she has never claimed otherwise. In fact, she has wrote in her book



Nothing about being 'forced' so give it up, Vix. You're wrong. I know you find it difficult, if not impossible, to accept that but the facts are the facts.



No one said they were. But as LondonJohn did say: their VERDICTS were annulled.



She was a contributor as Kulman said herself (see her quote I posted earlier). Nowhere is "as told to" present on WTBH. Stop making things up. It's not doing you any favors.



I see you subscribe to the Trump philosophy of "don't believe your lying eyes". The chair was moved. The question is when.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_716695d7a93cbef7b0.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_716695d7a9439b4d11.jpg[/qimg]

This is how supporting claims with evidence is done, Vixen. You should try it.

The first pic is dated the 3 Nov AFTER the official police crime scene photo of 2 Nov 2007, which is the one included in the official police exhibits to the court.
 
Given Amanda Knox' lifestyle choices, which in her own words was to sleep with as many guys as possible to gain sexual experience and was actually sleeping with a convicted cocaine drug dealer almost ten years older, it was to her benefit to have been tested for HIV as the earlier it is diagnosed the better the prognosis.

The claim she was told she had a positive HIV test out of sheer victimisation is disgraceful defamation of the doctor concerned without any foundation.

Any doctor who agrees to work in a prison amongst all sorts, prostitutes, drug addicts, thieves and murderers, etc, is more likely to be a caring type than the ones who prefer rich private patients only.

Vixen lies that Amanda said her aim was to sleep with as many men as possible. A lie which has been pointed out before. Vixen repeats another lie Amanda was sleeping with a cocaine dealer. If the case against Amanda was such a slam dunk why is that since joining this forum Vixen has consistently been unable to argue the case for guilt without resorting to lying. How does Vixen explain the hypocrisy of attacking Amanda for lying when constantly lying in her posts and repeating the same lies over and over again.

If a genuine HIV test was carried out, why does the evidence overwhelmingly suggest this was not the case?
 
Oh, boy. Another completely fictitious claim from you. The reasons the case went to 'a completely new court in a completely different region' is because

https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/amanda-knoxs-slander-trial-moved-to-florence/

Also, Perugia only has one appellate court so it couldn't be heard there again by the same court that had just been overturned:


https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2013/mar/27/italian-court-orders-new-trial-for-knox/

https://www.foxnews.com/world/italy...nox-acquittal-in-murder-case-orders-new-trial




It has glass in the upper section. Try again.
It does not go unnoticed, nor is it surprising, that you fail to recognize your error that "Truth Calls' claim there was an easier way of looking out, via the front." Par for the course, innit?



Why, yes...yes, we are. Some have claimed she was 'tricked', but never 'forced'. No one made her do it and she has never claimed otherwise. In fact, she has wrote in her book



Nothing about being 'forced' so give it up, Vix. You're wrong. I know you find it difficult, if not impossible, to accept that but the facts are the facts.



No one said they were. But as LondonJohn did say: their VERDICTS were annulled.



She was a contributor as Kulman said herself (see her quote I posted earlier). Nowhere is "as told to" present on WTBH. Stop making things up. It's not doing you any favors.



I see you subscribe to the Trump philosophy of "don't believe your lying eyes". The chair was moved. The question is when.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_716695d7a93cbef7b0.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_716695d7a9439b4d11.jpg[/qimg]

This is how supporting claims with evidence is done, Vixen. You should try it.



I don't even think it's the same chair in those two photos.

The chair that was (at some point) well within the bathroom and next to the bath has a splayed back (i.e. it's wider at the top of the seat back than at the seat level - the outer wooden rods go up at an angle rather than vertically). Whereas in the chair that's briefly visible in the video capture, the seat back appears to be more-or-less rectangular in its front profile: the outer wooden rod appears to be more-or-less vertical, and certainly not splaying out in the same way as the other chair.

The same type of chair as was (at some point) next to the bath in the bathroom is also visible in that crime scene video, at around 8:07, situated outside the bathroom up against the wall.

I think the "crack" police may have moved furniture around quite a bit in that lower cottage. Just as they may very well have moved Knox's lamp into Kercher's room (and then kept quiet about having done so, maybe when they realised - or were told - how unprofessional and reputation-damaging an act that was)
 
The first pic is dated the 3 Nov AFTER the official police crime scene photo of 2 Nov 2007, which is the one included in the official police exhibits to the court.


So, as one question of many: what was the value of taking a crime scene video, then?
 
Oh and Vixen: how are you coming along with (reliable, credible) evidence to support your claim that the Knox family engaged in a "$2 million PR campaign"? You claimed to have just such evidence, yet you haven't produced it.

Are you perhaps ready yet to admit that your claim of having (reliable, credible) evidence to support that assertion was a lie?


(No, thought not......... :rolleyes:)
 
Given Amanda Knox' lifestyle choices, which in her own words was to sleep with as many guys as possible to gain sexual experience and was actually sleeping with a convicted cocaine drug dealer almost ten years older, it was to her benefit to have been tested for HIV as the earlier it is diagnosed the better the prognosis.

The claim she was told she had a positive HIV test out of sheer victimisation is disgraceful defamation of the doctor concerned without any foundation.

Any doctor who agrees to work in a prison amongst all sorts, prostitutes, drug addicts, thieves and murderers, etc, is more likely to be a caring type than the ones who prefer rich private patients only.

I'd ask you for a quote from Knox saying she was out "to sleep with as many guys as possible to gain sexual experience" but we both know you won't because you can't. Those are your words. Knox slept with a total of seven men. That is hardly as 'many guys as possible'. What she did say was that she wanted to explore her sexuality and that she tried having casual sex for a short time but then realized it wasn't for her.

I'd also ask you for proof that Knox was "sleeping with a convicted cocaine drug dealer" but, again, we both know you can't. Stop repeating things alleged without proof by the police and never presented in court. You're referring to the guy she met on the train to Florence with whom she had foreplay ONCE. They never saw each other again so it would be rather difficult to have been "sleeping" with him.

Reports of Ms Knox's drug dealing connections were not mentioned at her murder trials in Italy, but the Italian crime magazine Giallo has reported that in January 2008, police investigators wrote that she had had a relationship of a "supposedly sexual nature" with a man they refer to as 'F', who had sold drugs to the US student.

Giallo wrote that 'F' was a psychology student from Rome who met Ms Knox on a train from Milan to Florence and shared a joint with her. His number was later found on Ms Knox's cell phone and Giallo said he had been in contact with her frequently, before and after the slaying of Ms Kercher.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...iate-arrested-for-attempted-knife-murder.html

There is no evidence that F "sold drugs to" Amanda. Of course, we all know that Knox's hair tested negative for narcotics so she was not using cocaine. As far as there being "frequent" contact between them, Knox's phone records also disprove that claim. Which is why none of this was ever brought up in court at any of the trials. It was just more crap leaked to the press by the police.

That's what higher courts do. They direct the lower court to correct its legal error by reassessing the issue in question.

Higher courts do NOT direct what verdicts the lower court is to find which is, essentially, what Chieffi did. And Nencini obeyed only to have that verdict excoriated by the Supreme Court.

Even if there was a clear view from that door, there is little to zero view of who or what is approaching from the cottage's main entrance, which leads first to a car parking space.

It is too far back.

Quite the opposite. It would be a better view over the wall that runs between the porch and parking area. The angle of view is more vertical the closer to the wall but lower when farther back. That is why we move back, not closer, to see over an obstacle.
 
The first pic is dated the 3 Nov AFTER the official police crime scene photo of 2 Nov 2007, which is the one included in the official police exhibits to the court.

As I said, the only question is when the chair was moved. I already pointed out the video is from Nov. 3 (as clearly marked on it). However, the photo is not dated except by TMofMK which has ALL pictures under the Nov. 2 heading but no pictures at all dated for Nov. 3. I highly doubt NO pictures were taken on Nov. 3. Are the chances it was taken on Nov 2 greater than on Nov 3? I would think so and likely it was, but I can find nothing to confirm that. Regardless of when it was moved, would you now acknowledge that the chair WAS moved and admit that your claim it was not moved is wrong?

I also notice that you do not address the several other posts where I provided evidence that your claims were wrong. Your tactic is to just avoid doing so and then to repeat the same false claims later.
 
The undeniable fact that Stefanoni and the prosecution suppressed all the raw DNA profile data as well as large amounts of other relevant data in the Knox - Sollecito case presents an insurmountable barrier to any court in Italy (a Council of Europe member state) issuing a legally valid final judgment, under ECHR case-law, that Knox or Sollecito were guilty of Kercher's rape and murder.

Denial of the original evidence to the defense thereby preventing it from challenging that evidence, followed by conviction based on a reproduction or interpretation of the evidence, has been found by the ECHR to be a violation of Convention Article 6 (right to a fair trial). For example, in the case GEORGIOS PAPAGEORGIOU v. GREECE 59506/00, the ECHR judgment found:

"37. The Court notes that, unlike Fitt, cited above, the instant case does not concern the concealment of evidence, but the refusal to order production of the originals of documents used as evidence for the prosecution. ....

38. As to the numerous other items of documentary evidence referred to by the Government, the Court notes, as the applicant did, that the documents in question were very diverse and related to other defendants or did not serve as a basis for the applicant’s conviction.

39. Having regard to the fact that, in spite of his repeated requests, essential pieces of evidence were not adequately adduced and discussed at the trial in the applicant’s presence, the Court concludes that the proceedings in issue, taken as a whole, did not satisfy the requirements of a fair trial.

40. There has therefore been a violation of Article 6 §§ 1 and 3 (d) of the Convention."

Some who attempt to follow the Knox - Sollecito case may not realize the significance - that is, the total lack of credibility - of alleged scientific or forensic results that are based on data that are found to be unreliable. In academic and government work, scientists who have been found to misrepresent their data or results or commit similar misconduct suffer negative consequences and papers based on such misconduct are generally subject to withdrawal from the literature. For example, see:

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-...fire-professors-for-research-misconduct-66352

Here is an excerpt from the above, illustrating the negative implications on the credibility of results or interpretations where the scientists did not (or could not) provide sufficient original data in support:

"The internal investigation committee produced a 1,000-page report and shut down Shi and Zhang’s labs on Thursday (August 22 [2019]). The committee found “several examples of falsified or fabricated data that were among numerous irregularities in seven grant proposals and at least 13 scholarly papers sampled from their work,” according to the UK [University of Kentucky] statement.

The committee stated that the researchers provided “very little” of the original data requested for the investigation and concluded that the data’s absence was “inconsistent with NIH or UK expectations and resulted in an inability to validate” how the data were represented in grants and publications, according to the UK statement. The findings were handed over to the federal Office of Research of Integrity, which handles misconduct cases that involve federal grants."

A more detailed press release on the above may be of interest; it is at:

https://www.uky.edu/prmarketing/statement-research-misconduct

The applicable standards of scientific research, such as maintaining full, contemporaneous, clear and accurate records apply as well to forensic DNA testing. This is true for European forensic labs, not merely those in the US, and guidance and regulations defining these standards are provided in current ISO documents.

The applicable ISO (International Standards Organization) documents are available at:

https://www.anab.org/2018-iso-iec-17025-forensic-accreditation-documents-0

and, in particular, ISO GD 3150 Guiding Principles of Professional Responsibility for Forensic Service Providers and Forensic Personnel. Here are some relevant excerpts:

"Ethical and professionally responsible forensic personnel . . .

1. Are independent, impartial, detached, and objective, approaching all examinations with due diligence and an open mind.

2. Conduct full and fair examinations. Conclusions are based on the evidence and reference material relevant to the evidence, not on extraneous information, political pressure, or other outside influences.

3. Are aware of their limitations and only render conclusions that are within their area of expertise and about matters which they have given formal consideration.

4. Honestly communicate with all parties (the investigator, prosecutor, defense, and other expert witnesses) about all information relating to their analyses, when communications are permitted by law and agency practice.
5. Report to the appropriate legal or administrative authorities unethical, illegal, or scientifically questionable conduct of other forensic employees or managers. Forensic management will take appropriate action if there is potential for, or there has been, a miscarriage of justice due to circumstances that have come to light, incompetent practice or malpractice. 6. Report conflicts between their ethical/professional responsibilities and applicable agency policy, law, regulation, or other legal authority, and attempt to resolve them.

7. Do not accept or participate in any case on a contingency fee basis or in which they have any other personal or financial conflict of interest or an appearance of such a conflict.
....

Ethical and professionally responsible forensic personnel . . .

13. Accurately represent their education, training, experience, and area of expertise.

14. Present accurate and complete data in reports, testimony, publications and oral presentations.
15. Make and retain full, contemporaneous, clear and accurate records of all examinations and tests conducted, and conclusions drawn, in sufficient detail to allow meaningful review and assessment of the conclusions by an independent person competent in the field. Reports are prepared in which facts, opinions and interpretations are clearly distinguishable, and which clearly describe limitations on the methods, interpretations and opinions presented.
16. Do not alter reports or other records or withhold information from reports for strategic or tactical litigation advantage.
17. Support sound scientific techniques and practices and do not use their positions to pressure an examiner or technician to arrive at conclusions or results that are not supported by data.

18. Testify to results obtained and conclusions reached only when they have confidence that the opinions are based on good scientific principles and methods. Opinions are to be stated so as to be clear in their meaning. Wording should not be such that inferences may be drawn which are not valid, or that slant the opinion to a particular direction.
19. Attempt to qualify their responses while testifying when asked a question with the requirement that a simple “yes” or “no” answer be given, if answering “yes” or “no” would be misleading to the judge or the jury.
 
In respect of the claim, if you stand on a chair and look out of the boys' bathroom window, just below and slightly to the side of Filomena's window, you can't see anything but the wall. The attached police crime scene photo taken at the time of the incident shows very clearly a good view of that window from the car park approach. If we can see it, then persons the other side of it can likewise see us, if looking out.

Re Truth Calls claim there was an easier way of looking out, via the front. Not so. The window at the front belongs to the upper level of the cottage and is the large bathroom/washroom where Knox claimed to have had a fright from the contents of the toilet bowl. As you can surmise from the photo, this is a long room extending almost to the front door and to the far wall, the loo being at the far end and Knox claiming to blow dry her hair at the front door end (from whence Rudy could easily have made his escape were he a burglar caught out by Mez' arrival home and was in here hiding). As an aside, one has to be sceptical she could see the contents of the loo from her position up to twenty feet away.

Photos source: themurderofmeredithkercher.com

Clearly you don't understand the concept of line of sight. Draw a line from the top of that window through the camera lens and extend it out past the road. Anything below that line is not visible.

You completely misinterpreted what I said - nothing new there. There is a large window in the bedroom to the right of the bathroom (when standing at the entrance to the bathroom). This is a downstairs bedroom, it faces the car park and it would be far easier to access than the bathroom window.

What I said was "Why would they be standing on a chair, leaning over the tub to look thru a small window when there was a full size window in the next room with basically the same view?" I have NO idea how you managed to interpret what I said as being a window in Laura and Filomena's bathroom.

Finally, you slip in the comment; "...the loo being at the far end and Knox claiming to blow dry her hair at the front door end (from whence Rudy could easily have made his escape were he a burglar caught out by Mez' arrival home and was in here hiding)". I'm not sure whether you're referring to the window itself - which had security bars on it - or the front door (which MEREDITH most likely locked as was habit) but neither offered an escape route for Guede.

The below elevation and floor plan pictures might help you 'visualize' the issue albeit true line of sight can't be established without accurate measurements.

picture.php
 
I don't even think it's the same chair in those two photos.

The chair that was (at some point) well within the bathroom and next to the bath has a splayed back (i.e. it's wider at the top of the seat back than at the seat level - the outer wooden rods go up at an angle rather than vertically). Whereas in the chair that's briefly visible in the video capture, the seat back appears to be more-or-less rectangular in its front profile: the outer wooden rod appears to be more-or-less vertical, and certainly not splaying out in the same way as the other chair.

The same type of chair as was (at some point) next to the bath in the bathroom is also visible in that crime scene video, at around 8:07, situated outside the bathroom up against the wall.

I think the "crack" police may have moved furniture around quite a bit in that lower cottage. Just as they may very well have moved Knox's lamp into Kercher's room (and then kept quiet about having done so, maybe when they realised - or were told - how unprofessional and reputation-damaging an act that was)

I disagree that it's not the same chair. I have snipped the photo of the chair in front of the bathtub to more closely resemble the chair we can see in the video. I also lightened the video picture to make it easier to see. Remembering that the "bathtub" chair view is from the back and the video chair view is of the front, the curve will be in the opposite direction thus somewhat distorting how we see it. The different angles they were shot from will also cause some distortion in how we see it.




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I disagree that it's not the same chair. I have snipped the photo of the chair in front of the bathtub to more closely resemble the chair we can see in the video. I also lightened the video picture to make it easier to see. Remembering that the "bathtub" chair view is from the back and the video chair view is of the front, the curve will be in the opposite direction thus somewhat distorting how we see it. The different angles they were shot from will also cause some distortion in how we see it.


[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/716695d7aafdb9e84e.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_716695d7ab01499076.jpg[/qimg]h



Without labouring the point (mainly because all this is moot anyhow, on account of the fact that there's no reliable evidence that anyone went into the lower cottage on the evening/night of the murder), I don't think your analysis is quite right.

Let's first take the visible portion of the chair shown in the video capture: it's right next to the sink and up against the wall against which the sink is also placed.

So we can find a good horizontal reference from the line across the back of the sink (not even Italian builders are so bad as to install a sink at an angle...).

And from that, we can see that in fact the outer vertical rod of the adjacent chair is almost precisely vertical. It's at right angles to the line across the back of the sink.

And this is totally at odds with the appearance of the other chair that is shown in full in the first photo, positioned next to the bath.

It's also, incidentally, at odds with the appearance of the chair shown in the video at 8:07, placed against the wall outside the bathroom (and placed face-on to the camera position this time). And this chair is of exactly the same appearance as the one in the first photo next to the bath.


But anyhoooo........
 
Oh, boy. Another completely fictitious claim from you. The reasons the case went to 'a completely new court in a completely different region' is because

...Knox's defense team successfully fought to have the case moved to another jurisdiction.
According to the Italian news agency ANSA, Knox lawyer Carlo Dalla Vedova asked that the trial be moved from Perugia to Florence, arguing that there is a conflict of interest with the prosecutor, Giuliano Mignini. Dalla Vedova said Mignini, who was present in court today, argued the slander case even though he is one of the parties involved in making the allegation against Knox.

https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/amanda-knoxs-slander-trial-moved-to-florence/

Also, Perugia only has one appellate court so it couldn't be heard there again by the same court that had just been overturned:

In any case, the judicial saga is likely to continue for years. It will be months before a date is set for the new trial, to be held in Florence instead of Perugia because the small town has only one appellate court, which already acquitted her.

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2013/mar/27/italian-court-orders-new-trial-for-knox/

https://www.foxnews.com/world/italy...nox-acquittal-in-murder-case-orders-new-trial

....

There's a correction or qualification required in the first part of your otherwise excellent post:

The article you reference in the first citation addresses the request of Knox and her defense to move her trial on the charges that she committed calunnia against the police and Mignini out of Perugia's courts. Knox's argument that it had to be moved because of the conflict of interest in trying a case involving Perugia's police and prosecutor in Perugia was accepted as well-founded. The trial on these charges was indeed moved to Florence, and was heard by Judge Boninsegna, who acquitted Knox of the charges of calunnia against the police and Mignini. This trial had no direct connection with the case heard by the Nencini Court of Appeal in Florence.

On the other hand, after the Chieffi CSC panel annulled the Hellmann Court of Appeal verdict, it had to refer the case to another appeal court. Because there was no other chamber of the Court of Appeal in Perugia, the CSC referred the case to the Court of Appeal in Florence, the next nearest Court of Appeal to the one in Perugia, where it was heard by the Nencini Court of Appeal. The Italian law covering this situation of referral when there is no available new chamber of a Court of Appeal in the original jurisdiction is CPP Article 623, paragraph 1, subsection C).
 
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Clearly you don't understand the concept of line of sight. Draw a line from the top of that window through the camera lens and extend it out past the road. Anything below that line is not visible.

You completely misinterpreted what I said - nothing new there. There is a large window in the bedroom to the right of the bathroom (when standing at the entrance to the bathroom). This is a downstairs bedroom, it faces the car park and it would be far easier to access than the bathroom window.

What I said was "Why would they be standing on a chair, leaning over the tub to look thru a small window when there was a full size window in the next room with basically the same view?" I have NO idea how you managed to interpret what I said as being a window in Laura and Filomena's bathroom.

Finally, you slip in the comment; "...the loo being at the far end and Knox claiming to blow dry her hair at the front door end (from whence Rudy could easily have made his escape were he a burglar caught out by Mez' arrival home and was in here hiding)". I'm not sure whether you're referring to the window itself - which had security bars on it - or the front door (which MEREDITH most likely locked as was habit) but neither offered an escape route for Guede.

The below elevation and floor plan pictures might help you 'visualize' the issue albeit true line of sight can't be established without accurate measurements.

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I entirely agree with your overarching point here.

But on specifics, your line-of-sight diagrams are incorrect: the relevant line of sight in respect of that side elevation of the house would actually be out of the page towards the viewer - not sideways up to the right (if, that is, we are assuming that this (mythical) person in the bathroom was trying to see up towards the car port area and not up towards the area just in front of the porch of the upper (girls') cottage).

It's all moot for two reasons anyhow: firstly, nobody looking out of any window at any height in that lower cottage could possibly see anything other than the tiniest edge of the front of the car port (OK: they could see approaching cars' lights, but they could have just as easily seen those simply standing on the floor...); and secondly, there's absolutely no evidence that anyone actually did even go into that lower (boys') cottage on the evening/night of the murder.
 
TruthCalls, don't forget that there is also a wall that bars even more of the view. Look at this photo which show part of that wall which wraps around along the entrance in relation to the bathroom window. The line of sight would be quite high.
 
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