Cont: Brexit: Now What? Magic 8 Ball's up

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https://www.theage.com.au/world/eur...-brexit-extension-report-20190909-p52paj.html



Amber Rudd, a senior minister who quit British Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s Cabinet said on Sunday that the government was making little or no effort to secure a Brexit agreement with the European Union, despite Johnson’s insistence that he wants a deal.


“What we know is that Angela Merkel and the EU have said, ‘give us your proposal,’ and we have not given them a proposal,” she told the BBC.
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Can't get more clear than that.
 
ceptimus said:
@ D.O. I agree with that. Any government trying to govern without a majority is doomed to fail. Ever since May squandered her majority in a vain attempt to secure a larger one, the writing has been on the wall. First having to rely on the DUP, and latterly even with them it shrank to just one. Then, under Boris, with further defections, it's gone entirely. Obviously a general election is needed to try and sort it out: we may end up with another hung parliament but it's got to be worth trying. The sooner the better, in my opinion.
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If you support a third vote on which MPs implement it, then why not a second vote on what they are implementing?

*It's a rhetorical question, we know the answer. JRM already gave the game away, you know you would lose a second referendum on the EU.
 
Information Analyst said:
Indeed. I think the First World War tends to overshadow British military activities in the 1920s in most people's (limited) knowledge. The lack of archiving of unit records of the period - compared to those meticulously kept for 1914-1919 - is also rather stark.
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Oh yes, people in Britain are grossly unaware of the revolutionary fervour of the country in the period before and after the Great War; the numerous mutinies after the war ended and ci8vil unrest around the country.

Alfred Milner in a letter to Lloyd George dated 1 June 1917 said:
I fear the time is very near at hand, when we will have to take some strong steps to stop the “rot” in this country, unless we wish to “follow Russia” into impotence & dissolution’.
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Or Churchill's order of January 1919 to the CIGS
Winston Churchill said:
...prepare a complete scheme and organisation of Military Forces throughout the United Kingdom to act in aid of the Civil Power in the event of a national strike of a revolutionary character.
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Samson said:
I don't see the point of accusing anyone of lying on a thread,.
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I don't see the point of lying when everyone on this thread knows they are lies. This isn't Facebook. You don't have a gang of credulous idiots waiting to learn what they are supposed to think.
 
ceptimus said:
What you say is simply not true. Boris's team has continued to meet with the EU team at least twice a week.
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Meeting someone and negotiating with them is not the same thing. The only people who say they are negotiating are the proven liars who are supposed to be doing it.

The EU side, so far, haven't shown any signs of being prepared to renegotiate the W.A. they have presented zero new ideas as far as we know.
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Not their job. They are happy with the deal as agreed

Unless and until they are prepared to renegotiate, we know that the existing W.A. stood no chance of passing the existing UK parliament.
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Because the ERG blocked us from leaving.

After a general election, if we get a more Remain-supporting government, the EU still won't need to negotiate as they will be confident that the UK will then entirely remain. The Benn Bill has given the EU the incentive now to sit on their hands and wait for Remain - the only chance now for renegotiation is if the general election returns a leave-supporting government with a good working majority.
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The only chance for renegotiation is if those who want to change the agreement come up with a credible practical acceptable alternative. Which they won't or can't.
 
ceptimus said:
What you say is simply not true. Boris's team has continued to meet with the EU team at least twice a week. The EU side, so far, haven't shown any signs of being prepared to renegotiate the W.A. they have presented zero new ideas as far as we know. Unless and until they are prepared to renegotiate, we know that the existing W.A. stood no chance of passing the existing UK parliament.

After a general election, if we get a more Remain-supporting government, the EU still won't need to negotiate as they will be confident that the UK will then entirely remain. The Benn Bill has given the EU the incentive now to sit on their hands and wait for Remain - the only chance now for renegotiation is if the general election returns a leave-supporting government with a good working majority.
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:rolleyes:
 
Information Analyst said:
Indeed. I think the First World War tends to overshadow British military activities in the 1920s in most people's (limited) knowledge. The lack of archiving of unit records of the period - compared to those meticulously kept for 1914-1919 - is also rather stark.
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There is also the government's concern over ex soldiers and all the firearms that were in the country, left over from WWI. It was post 1918 that UK firearms controls were introduced as the government, with general public backing, as it was decided that an unarmed police needs an unarmed public.

The military on stand by in case of shootings makes sense.
 
ceptimus said:
What you say is simply not true. Boris's team has continued to meet with the EU team at least twice a week. The EU side, so far, haven't shown any signs of being prepared to renegotiate the W.A. they have presented zero new ideas as far as we know. Unless and until they are prepared to renegotiate, we know that the existing W.A. stood no chance of passing the existing UK parliament.

After a general election, if we get a more Remain-supporting government, the EU still won't need to negotiate as they will be confident that the UK will then entirely remain. The Benn Bill has given the EU the incentive now to sit on their hands and wait for Remain - the only chance now for renegotiation is if the general election returns a leave-supporting government with a good working majority.
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What is the name of the MP leading the UK's negotiating team? What are the "new ideas" presented by that the MP and his team?

Amber Rudd has exposed that what is going on in any ongoing UK/EU negotiations, is preparing for a no deal brexit.
 
Ceptimus, you still have not explained how Brexit would be beneficial. And certainly not why a no deal would be worth people dying due to medicine shortages.

What are your reasons?
 
The Don said:
Once the UK has left the EU, that's it, no do-overs.

We could of course apply for re-entry but it would be on much less favourable terms than we enjoy at the moment. We'd lose the "Thatcher rebate" and most, if not all of our opt-outs. We'd also likely be obliged to join one or both of the Euro and Schengen zone.
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The UK's existing deal with the EU is the most accommodating to any country in the EU and means of all EU members, the UK has the most freedom and fewest tie ins.

The remain side's inability to point that out during the referendum campaign, was a major reason remain lost.
 
jimbob said:
Ceptimus, you still have not explained how Brexit would be beneficial. And certainly not why a no deal would be worth people dying due to medicine shortages.

What are your reasons?
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There will be no significant negative consequences. Project Fear has blown everything out of proportion and although there may be localised short-term inconveniences, there will be no lasting damage.

OTOH freed from EU shackles (though strangely enough with most of the same trade deals) UK trade with the rest of the world will leap. For example, trade with the US will increase three or four fold (after all President Trump has promised us), likely all other major economies will be the same.

The only possible downside of Brexit is working out what to do with all the wealth that will be flooding into the country :rolleyes:
 
Nessie said:
The UK's existing deal with the EU is the most accommodating to any country in the EU and means of all EU members, the UK has the most freedom and fewest tie ins.

The remain side's inability to point that out during the referendum campaign, was a major reason remain lost.
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It's difficult to sell someone something they already have :(

This is even more the case when they have been told for the last 30 years by everyone (including their own government) what a terrible deal it is.
 
ceptimus said:
What you say is simply not true. Boris's team has continued to meet with the EU team at least twice a week.
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And all that the UK side seems to want is "conversations," not "negotiations."

The EU side, so far, haven't shown any signs of being prepared to renegotiate the W.A. they have presented zero new ideas as far as we know. Unless and until they are prepared to renegotiate, we know that the existing W.A. stood no chance of passing the existing UK parliament.
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It's not the EU's job to think of ways to get the UK government out of a predicament of its own making. The UK government has for months/years claimed there are solutions, but doesn't seem to have come up with any, which is their own fault, not the EU's
 
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Darat said:
Not true. The EU has from the beginning made clear why the backstop is required (for them) , which remember would only come into effect if the EU and the UK cannot agree a deal before the end of the withdrawal period. Johnson and others have claimed that they can come up with a way of ensuring even if a new deal is not in place after the withdrawal period there is no need for a border between the EU and Northern Ireland. (Often claiming a rather vague "there is a technological solution".) The EU has said "fine come back to us with this solution". So far the UK has not presented the EU negotiators with this proposed solution. The ball is firmly on the UK side of the net at the moment.
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Furthermore, if there indeed were a technological solution of some sort, the Backstop would not be an issue to begin with. The purpose of the Backstop is to ensure there is no hard border if no solution is found.

This is not mentioned often enough. If all BJ says about the technological solution is true, then Backstop is irrelevant to UK since it'll never be used anyway. It should still stay, because it forces that solution be used.

McHrozni
 
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