The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 29

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Lol is contriving bs "something" now?

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/taATMMM.jpg[/qimg]

You can look at the print with your eyes and see it is a perfect match for Rudy's shoes. Turning this into a lady's shoeprint, because it's convenient for your employer's findings, is bordering on perjury/submitting false evidence.

I didn't say Rinaldi was correct in his conclusions, only that he didn't base his findings on "nothing" as you claim. You are assuming intentional dishonesty on Rinaldi's part, not simple incompetence. Sorry, but that's getting into the realm of Vix's (err...Vix') conspiracy theory about all the defense experts being 'bent'.
 
I didn't say Rinaldi was correct in his conclusions, only that he didn't base his findings on "nothing" as you claim. You are assuming intentional dishonesty on Rinaldi's part, not simple incompetence. Sorry, but that's getting into the realm of Vix's (err...Vix') conspiracy theory about all the defense experts being 'bent'.

So your conclusion is Rinaldi was being genuine with his findings? It never occurred to me anyone could reach that conclusion, since it is implausible that anyone could look at the prints and conclude they were anything but Rudy's Nike's.

IDK how transparent the bogus evidence would have to be before you concluded it was intentionally contrived to favor the prosecution? Maybe if you could actually see the Nike logo in the print?
 
We have several examples in this case of the prosecution allowing witnesses to commit obvious perjury or submit false evidence:

-Vulcano Gerardo Pasquale
-Officer Battistelli
-Antonio Curatolo
-Marco Quintavalle

Just to name the obvious and self evident ones. There is no integrity in this court with regards to the witnesses brought to testify in it. I don't see why it should be any different for the defense. Amanda is innocent because the evidence we can independently verify for ourselves proves who committed the crime and who did not. Not because of defense witness testimony.

I disagree. You are assuming the prosecution KNEW the above were lying. While common sense tells us Curatolo and Quinatavalle were not credible, look at how many PGP totally believe them. Both Curatolo and Quintavalle may have actually believed what they said. It's not unusual for the prosecution to put witnesses on the stand who are later, during cross examination, shown to not be credible or mistaken. It doesn't mean they were intentionally lying. Think of witnesses who make an identification only to later be shown they were wrong. And that includes a rape victim who mistakenly identifies the wrong man as her attacker.
 
Both Quintavalle and Curatolo told the police they saw and knew nothing. In fact Machiavelli's reasoning for why Quintavalle was not obviously committing perjury was that it is customary in Italy to lie to the police to avoid becoming entangled in a police matter. BTW, this wasn't what Quintavalle testified to in trial, but was meant to be taken subtextually. IE he committed obvious perjury to which anyone familiar with all his statements would've known.
 
So your conclusion is Rinaldi was being genuine with his findings? It never occurred to me anyone could reach that conclusion, since it is implausible that anyone could look at the prints and conclude they were anything but Rudy's Nike's.

IDK how transparent the bogus evidence would have to be before you concluded it was intentionally contrived to favor the prosecution? Maybe if you could actually see the Nike logo in the print?

I have no reason to doubt the honesty of Rinaldi, just his competency in identifying shoe prints as that was not his area of expertise; fingerprint identification was. He is a respected forensic expert who, as far as I'm aware, has no history of dishonesty or being otherwise 'bent'. Yes, Vinci clearly showed where Rinaldi made his mistakes, but that is not evidence of deliberate dishonesty on Rinaldi's part.

Resorting to sarcasm does not make your argument any stronger.
 
Both Quintavalle and Curatolo told the police they saw and knew nothing. In fact Machiavelli's reasoning for why Quintavalle was not obviously committing perjury was that it is customary in Italy to lie to the police to avoid becoming entangled in a police matter. BTW, this wasn't what Quintavalle testified to in trial, but was meant to be taken subtextually. IE he committed obvious perjury to which anyone familiar with all his statements would've known.

When Quintavalle told Det. Volturno he had not seen Knox or Sollecito just following the murder, he was not under oath so he committed no perjury. IMO, he was telling the truth then...he had not. However, when he did go to the police, at the urging of a reporter over a year later, he may well have believed he did see Knox that morning. It's amazing how people's memories can become influenced after getting information from the media. OR he may well have been lying thinking to get free publicity for his store. Either way, that does not mean the prosecutors KNEW he was lying. They could only go on what he told them. How would they KNOW he was lying about seeing them versus having lied about NOT seeing them a year earlier (not under oath)?

How would the prosecutors KNOW Battestelli was lying about not going into Kercher's bedroom unless he told them he was lying? It was his word against Filomena's and (I think) her boyfriend's. They would hope the judges would believe a policeman over the other two or they may even have been unaware that F and her boyfriend woud testify otherwise under cross examination.
 
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When Quintavalle told Det. Volturno he had not seen Knox or Sollecito just following the murder, he was not under oath so he committed no perjury. IMO, he was telling the truth then...he had not. However, when he did go to the police, at the urging of a reporter over a year later, he may well have believed he did see Knox that morning. It's amazing how people's memories can become influenced after getting information from the media. OR he may well have been lying thinking to get free publicity for his store. Either way, that does not mean the prosecutors KNEW he was lying. They could only go on what he told them. How would they KNOW he was lying about seeing them versus having lied about NOT seeing them a year earlier (not under oath)?

Because his new version of events is on its own self contradicting. He claims he only connected the alleged girl in the store the morning after the murder to Amanda upon seeing her arrest pictures, but he saw her arrest pictures before he was interviewed by the police. Clearly the story is false, but they brought him to trial with it anyway.

Let's step back and moment and ask, who here believes Quintavalle is a truthful witness? Can you name a single person that does that isn't a delusional imbecile? Find one rational person out there that buys his testimony.

Again, we come to the same problem. How transparent do we have to make the bogus evidence before the incompetence excuse becomes untenable?
 
Because his new version of events is on its own self contradicting. He claims he only connected the alleged girl in the store the morning after the murder to Amanda upon seeing her arrest pictures, but he saw her arrest pictures before he was interviewed by the police. Clearly the story is false, but they brought him to trial with it anyway.

Let's step back and moment and ask, who here believes Quintavalle is a truthful witness? Can you name a single person that does that isn't a delusional imbecile? Find one rational person out there that buys his testimony.

Again, we come to the same problem. How transparent do we have to make the bogus evidence before the incompetence excuse becomes untenable?

I don't believe Quintavalle. I think he saw an opportunity to get free publicity for his store. But that doesn't mean that the prosecution didn't believe him. And it doesn't matter whether they did or not....it's what they thought the judges would believe. And from the Massei MR, they clearly believed him.
 
Because his new version of events is on its own self contradicting. He claims he only connected the alleged girl in the store the morning after the murder to Amanda upon seeing her arrest pictures, but he saw her arrest pictures before he was interviewed by the police. Clearly the story is false, but they brought him to trial with it anyway.

Let's step back and moment and ask, who here believes Quintavalle is a truthful witness? Can you name a single person that does that isn't a delusional imbecile? Find one rational person out there that buys his testimony.

Again, we come to the same problem. How transparent do we have to make the bogus evidence before the incompetence excuse becomes untenable?

Another point: There were repeated instances of (alleged) "incompetence" in the testimony of a number of prosecution witnesses and also (alleged) "incompetence" in the technical work and/or analyses of the prosecution experts. All the likely superficial (face-value, unexamined critically) inferences from the many repeated instances of (alleged) "incompetence" by the prosecution were against the accused (Knox and Sollecito). From this pattern, I would argue that the many instances of (alleged) "incompetence" were not really "incompetence" but rather evidence of suspect-centered dishonesty or bad faith.

Of course, the purpose of the prosecution and its experts and other witnesses appearing "incompetent" rather than "dishonest" is to provide them with "plausible deniability" - that is, a defense against prosecution of the prosecution for abuse of power and other criminal acts and of the experts and witnesses for perjury and other criminal acts.

The pattern of (alleged) "incompetence" that is in reality suspect-centered dishonesty begins, it may be argued, with the initial police inspection of the crime scene, but, as may be inferred from the ECHR judgment, is clearly and definitively present in the violations of Knox's defense rights during the interrogations of Nov. 5/6.

Those that disagree with this position are entitled to their opinions, but if one looks objectively at the patterns in this case - for example, the repeated denial by the prosecution and the Italian courts to independently investigate, as required by international law, Knox's complaints of mistreatment during the interrogation - it is reasonable to conclude that there was a pattern of suspect-centered dishonesty on the part of the prosecution, the courts, and a number of prosecution witnesses and experts.
 
I don't believe Quintavalle. I think he saw an opportunity to get free publicity for his store. But that doesn't mean that the prosecution didn't believe him. And it doesn't matter whether they did or not....it's what they thought the judges would believe. And from the Massei MR, they clearly believed him.

He either slept through the testimony, or he is also lying, because his motivation report contains a false statement:

"This Court deems that the testimony of Quintavalle is reliable. It was discovered that Inspector Volturno did not ask Quintavalle if,on the morning of November 2,he saw Amanda Knox in his shop."

This is false and contradicts Volturno's own testimony. So I should clarify, does anyone that is actually aware of all the testimony surrounding Quintavalle, believe him? The working list atm is like, Vixen, Harry Rag, etc.
 
He either slept through the testimony, or he is also lying, because his motivation report contains a false statement:

"This Court deems that the testimony of Quintavalle is reliable. It was discovered that Inspector Volturno did not ask Quintavalle if,on the morning of November 2,he saw Amanda Knox in his shop."

This is false and contradicts Volturno's own testimony. So I should clarify, does anyone that is actually aware of all the testimony surrounding Quintavalle, believe him? The working list atm is like, Vixen, Harry Rag, etc.

Massei is full of illogical assumptions and conclusions which is why he was overturned. And rightfully so.
 
Massei is full of illogical assumptions and conclusions which is why he was overturned. And rightfully so.

My impression of the Massei court motivation report is that it is a logical disaster of suspect-centered assumptions, hypotheses, and illogical inferences turned into a wrongful judgment of guilt BARD (the BARD standard is required for a guilty verdict under Italian law, CPP Article 533).

Do you believe that the Massei court (which consisted of the court president, Massei; the second judge, Cristiani; and six lay judges [each a "giudice popolar" or "people's judge"] as named on the MR front page) was incompetent?

Or did it have an agenda, perhaps because of the influence of the Italian judicial tradition and culture based on the inquisitorial system, of creating "judicial truth" based on "logical" arguments that largely accepted the prosecution's case as "necessarily true" while largely discounting the defense's counter-case as "self-interested falsehoods"?
 
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Perhaps you'd like to present some evidence that Rolfe (or anyone here) has a "crush on the likes of Jeremy Bamber or Damien Echols"?

No? Didn't think so.

So many people just don't get that psychopathic killers are not wired like the rest of us.

They see the likes of Echols, Avery, Sutcliffe, Huntley, etc languishing in prison...and their hearts bleed for them. They pour out all of their sympathies for these cold blooded killers (three eight-year-old boys in the case one one, hog-bound, naked and sexually assaulted), write letters to them in prison, campaign for their release, plead for their innocence, slander and libel the police who put them there, and yet, did any of these monsters give a passing darn about thier victim/s?

If you had met one of these on a dark night in a dark alley do you think they would have had even a glimmer of sympathy for you as they perform their evil deeds.

Thanks to the misguided busybody do-gooders, these characters get to make a mockery of Innocence Projects, write books, make films, get tv interviews and piss on their victims from a great height.
 
Well it was a male foot shaped blob on a scruffy rug is what I meant, compatible with anyone. It just gives us a sequence of events. Murder -> Bathroom -> bedroom.

Nice try.

The footprint was objectively measured from all sides by qualified engineers and forensic experts with its parameters matched on a graph and modelled on a computer. This conclusively excluded Knox and Guede and matched Sollecito 98%.

It was Raff's bloodstained footprint on that bathmat.

No amount of sophistry can take that away.
 
Just to reopen this.....

It was never a foot"print", it was more properly referred to as a foot"track".

A footprint would be collected forensically like a fingerprint, so that identifiable ridges and swirling patterns would be visible.

The foottrack was on a terry-towel-like serface, fuzzy and not nearly fine enough to capture a "print". One of the forensic folk commented that because of the receiving medium (the terry-towel mat) it was impossible to draw anything but the most general of conclusions. Indeed, because of the receiving medium, the measurements of the track could be off by a good measure.....

From the Massei report of 2010, Massei cites Professor Vinci, and then goes on to (wrongly) discount what he'd said...

Apparently, Vinci said that what was also key, was that one should never take just one sample of a foottrack while the subject is sitting or relaxing. It should be taken while the subject is walking, for these purposes along a long piece of paper to capture what the foot looks like in motion.

The long and the short of it was that Professor Vinci found that one of Raffaele's toes had been missing, if one assumed the bathmat track had been his. Why is a whole toe missing?

If you give a read to Massei's reasons for ultimately rejecting Professor Vinci's views, it is not really because any other expert had proven that that foottrack had been Raffaele's.

It was because Massei had been locked into assuming the track had to have resembled EITHER Raffaele's right foot OR Guede's right foot. Of those two, so said Massei, it more resembled Sollecito's.

Stellar reasoning. There had been actual proof that it had not been Raffaele's, but if forced to chose, Massei said it must have been Raffaele's. Not because the forensics proved it as such, but because once Guede had been eliminated (which he had not been), the only candidate left was Sollecito.

Even though the medium on which the sample had been collected could not support that view.

Vinci - hired by the defence - was a crook. Used photoshop to try to make the footprint Guede's size 45 when it was always Raff's size 42, complete with his rare hammer toe.
 
You know, and I know (but apparently Vixen doesn't know) that mobile phone masts have a range considerably wider than a single house.

What?


If Meredith Kercher was 'dead as soon as she arrived home circa 9:00pm', how was she making calls on her mobile one and a half hours later?

We know Guede left straight away as his shoeprints in blood lead directly from her room towards the front door.

We know Knox and Sollecito do not have an alibi. In fact, Sollecito dreamt up a false alibi. Changed his story FIVE times.


Wthdrew his alibi for Knox. To this day he refuses to claim she was with him at the salient time frame.

What does a phone mast have to do with this? A telecommunications expert testified the call was made from the cottage.

But of course, you know better.
 
Perhaps you'd like to explain what ******* calls you're referring to.


(Since you're still apparently unaware with basic facts about the case, there were two aborted calls to numbers stored as short codes on Mez' Mez's Kercher's UK handset, and they took place right around 10pm. That's much less than one hour after Kercher was murdered. Not "an hour and a half later". And then there was an incoming MMS message to Kercher's UK handset just over 15 minutes after that.

And to answer your question in both instances: Guede - inside the cottage at 10pm with those two aborted outgoing calls, which were clearly fumbled attempts to turn the handset off), and somewhere on the road round the outside of the old city walls 15 minutes later (when he was caught out by the alert for the incoming MMS message, then mistakenly started the download of that message, then aborted the download). And very shortly after that MMS message fright, Guede clearly decided it was too much of a liability to hang on to Kercher's handsets, so he threw them into what he thought was a dark scrubby hillside (but which happened to be someone's front garden....)

Unfortunately for you it was Knox who made very brief calls on each phone the next morning. So brief we know she knew Mez would not be answering them and it was just for the record.

She rang Filomena, lied about her location, failed to inform her of any 'break-in' claimed she was worried about her roommat. Filomena uged her to call her. Yet Knox failed to tell her she alread had. As soon as she was off the phone, she half-heartedly rang each phone for less than four seconds. (For the record.) So much for being worried about her room mate.

She didn't call the police once.

Called her Mom though, even before Mez' door was broken door.

4:00am in the morning US time.

As of midday 2 Nov 2007, Knox certainly knew of her victim's fate.
 
Isn't it just. But perhaps you could let us all know what this has to do with a discussion of the Knox/Sollecito trials process?

You might have noticed a common thread: all those who tubthump that Knox and Sollecito are 'innocent', also claim the same for Echols, Dassey, Avery, Bamber, et al, worship the ground Sunny Jacobs walks on, even though she DID supply the guns her murderer husband used to kill two young cops.

Johnny Depp is Echols' greatest fan, presumably because they both like heavy metal music.

Why do people identify with coldblooded monsters just because they 'look like us'?

Knox has been photographed with Echols and she gushes about their friendship.

TBH anyone who claims Echols as a friend and role model has to be highly suspect.
 
Perhaps you'd like to explain why Meredith would be ******* about with her own phone in a manner indicating she didn't know how to make a phone call to England. She calls her bank in England but doesn't include the required prefix. Then, when it doesn't go through, instead of saying to herself "Oops, forgot the prefix," she doesn't call back. She suddenly doesn't need to call her bank for whatever reason she had just tried to call it for?

Massei's conjecture of her lying about on her bed playing with her phone and making accidental calls is ludicrous. It's a classic example of trying to make the evidence fit a conclusion instead of the evidence leading to a logical conclusion.

Hang on, wasn't she supposed to be 'dead by nine', an ad hoc alibi dreamt up by Rolfe, who tries to claim she is an expert so therefore, if she says so it must be true.
 
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