The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 29

Status
Not open for further replies.
They don't have a working narrative of AK/RS/RG participating in MK's murder for any TOD, let alone an early one. It has literally never been so much as attempted by them. Their inability to put together a basic sequence of events with what they consider ample evidence doesn't seem to give them any pause about their core belief in the pairs guilt though.

The PIP narrative is really just listing the evidence as it exist:

-A figure matching Rudy's description seen approaching cottage alone on CCTV
-There's an apparent break-in at the cottage matching a similar break-in blocks away Rudy was arrested in connection with
-Rudy's feces found in toilet
-A figure matching Meredith's description seen approaching cottage alone on CCTV
-Rudy's DNA found in Meredith's genitals, his bloody hand print left near body
-A bloody male footprint compatible with Rudy's foot in cleanup bathroom -Rudy's DNA found on Meredith's purse
-Rudy's bloody shoeprints trailing away from the body
-Rudy's statements that he was alone with Meredith, and she fought with a single male attacker

Listing the primary evidence creates a narrative and timeline. Imagine that. It's almost because the real evidence is the result of the sequence of events which actually occurred. Mind blown. Imagine being a delusional guilter idiot haha

Slight correction. The prosecution expert said the footprint was compatible with Sollecito's foot and not Guede's. But the defense expert only said it was not compatible with Sollecito's but never compared it to Guede's foot at all. It wasn't necessary for the defense to show it was Guede's, only that it wasn't Sollecito's.
 
Perhaps you'd like to explain who was ******* about with Mez' phone an hour and a half later inside the cottage.

<fx gets into listening pose>

Perhaps you'd like to explain why Meredith would be ******* about with her own phone in a manner indicating she didn't know how to make a phone call to England. She calls her bank in England but doesn't include the required prefix. Then, when it doesn't go through, instead of saying to herself "Oops, forgot the prefix," she doesn't call back. She suddenly doesn't need to call her bank for whatever reason she had just tried to call it for?

Massei's conjecture of her lying about on her bed playing with her phone and making accidental calls is ludicrous. It's a classic example of trying to make the evidence fit a conclusion instead of the evidence leading to a logical conclusion.
 
It's sad that anyone could let the fact they have a crush on the likes of Jeremy Bamber or Damien Echols get in the way of objectivity.

Perhaps you'd like to present some evidence that Rolfe (or anyone here) has a "crush on the likes of Jeremy Bamber or Damien Echols"?

No? Didn't think so.
 
Slight correction. The prosecution expert said the footprint was compatible with Sollecito's foot and not Guede's. But the defense expert only said it was not compatible with Sollecito's but never compared it to Guede's foot at all. It wasn't necessary for the defense to show it was Guede's, only that it wasn't Sollecito's.

Well it was a male foot shaped blob on a scruffy rug is what I meant, compatible with anyone. It just gives us a sequence of events. Murder -> Bathroom -> bedroom.
 
Slight correction. The prosecution expert said the footprint was compatible with Sollecito's foot and not Guede's. But the defense expert only said it was not compatible with Sollecito's but never compared it to Guede's foot at all. It wasn't necessary for the defense to show it was Guede's, only that it wasn't Sollecito's.

Just to reopen this.....

It was never a foot"print", it was more properly referred to as a foot"track".

A footprint would be collected forensically like a fingerprint, so that identifiable ridges and swirling patterns would be visible.

The foottrack was on a terry-towel-like serface, fuzzy and not nearly fine enough to capture a "print". One of the forensic folk commented that because of the receiving medium (the terry-towel mat) it was impossible to draw anything but the most general of conclusions. Indeed, because of the receiving medium, the measurements of the track could be off by a good measure.....

From the Massei report of 2010, Massei cites Professor Vinci, and then goes on to (wrongly) discount what he'd said...

Massei said:
It must first be noted that Professor Vinci disagrees with the some of the
terminological choices of the consultants of the prosecution. In the opinion of this
technical consultant, one should not speak of "print" but of a "track"[orma], as the
term "print" should be reserved uniquely for prints containing "ridges", not for foot
outlines.​
Apparently, Vinci said that what was also key, was that one should never take just one sample of a foottrack while the subject is sitting or relaxing. It should be taken while the subject is walking, for these purposes along a long piece of paper to capture what the foot looks like in motion.

The long and the short of it was that Professor Vinci found that one of Raffaele's toes had been missing, if one assumed the bathmat track had been his. Why is a whole toe missing?

Massei said:
A morphological examination of the footprint alone led the professor to consider it
as irreconcilable, due to its general shape and size, with the footprint taken directly from Sollecito's right foot.
If you give a read to Massei's reasons for ultimately rejecting Professor Vinci's views, it is not really because any other expert had proven that that foottrack had been Raffaele's.

It was because Massei had been locked into assuming the track had to have resembled EITHER Raffaele's right foot OR Guede's right foot. Of those two, so said Massei, it more resembled Sollecito's.

Stellar reasoning. There had been actual proof that it had not been Raffaele's, but if forced to chose, Massei said it must have been Raffaele's. Not because the forensics proved it as such, but because once Guede had been eliminated (which he had not been), the only candidate left was Sollecito.

Even though the medium on which the sample had been collected could not support that view.
 
Well it was a male foot shaped blob on a scruffy rug is what I meant, compatible with anyone. It just gives us a sequence of events. Murder -> Bathroom -> bedroom.

I don't want to belabor a point, but it wasn't 'compatible with anyone'; Vinci found it incompatible with Raffaele's foot meaning it wasn't he who left it. Finding something compatible (like the largest wound and the kitchen knife) merely means it COULD have been made by the object in question (along with many others) whereas finding it incompatible means the subject could not have made it. It is a significant difference.
 
I don't want to belabor a point, but it wasn't 'compatible with anyone'; Vinci found it incompatible with Raffaele's foot meaning it wasn't he who left it. Finding something compatible (like the largest wound and the kitchen knife) merely means it COULD have been made by the object in question (along with many others) whereas finding it incompatible means the subject could not have made it. It is a significant difference.

This.
 
I don't want to belabor a point, but it wasn't 'compatible with anyone'; Vinci found it incompatible with Raffaele's foot meaning it wasn't he who left it. Finding something compatible (like the largest wound and the kitchen knife) merely means it COULD have been made by the object in question (along with many others) whereas finding it incompatible means the subject could not have made it. It is a significant difference.
Rinaldi had this to say about that print (on page 47 of the report):
sono risultate non utili per i confronti positivi ma utili per i confronti negativi,
Just for the record ;)
 
I don't want to belabor a point, but it wasn't 'compatible with anyone'; Vinci found it incompatible with Raffaele's foot meaning it wasn't he who left it. Finding something compatible (like the largest wound and the kitchen knife) merely means it COULD have been made by the object in question (along with many others) whereas finding it incompatible means the subject could not have made it. It is a significant difference.

But Vinci was paid by the defense, so of course he's going to find in favor of the defense. I'm just going by the rough measurements of the foot, which makes it compatible with a great deal of male sized footprints. If we go by what the defense claims, we might as well say AK and RS are innocent because they say so.
 
But Vinci was paid by the defense, so of course he's going to find in favor of the defense. I'm just going by the rough measurements of the foot, which makes it compatible with a great deal of male sized footprints. If we go by what the defense claims, we might as well say AK and RS are innocent because they say so.

I'm assuming you're being tongue in cheek when you say "Vinci was paid by the defense, so of course he's going to find in favor of the defense."

Yes, it would have been compatible with many feet, including perhaps MK's ..ahem..'boyfriend', Giacomo Silenzi.

"If we go by what the defense claims, we might as well say AK and RS are innocent because they say so."

Can you clarify what you mean by this? I've read it several times and it makes no sense to me.
 
Last edited:
Ok so my only experience with the Italian justice system is this case, so I'm going by what I've seen.

So like remember when a prosecution expert witness, Rinaldi or w/e, submitted his report and it was accepted into the court case? And his forensic findings were that a woman sized shoeprint was found in blood on Meredith's pillow? Like from a Lady's ASICS shoe or whatever?

And if you went and actually looked at photographs of the pillow, you could see, with your very own eyes, the shoeprint in question was clearly from Rudy's Nike's? Like it was self evident? And the prosecution expert was very clearly arbitrarily picking overlapping prints from Rudy's shoes and using those as new borders to create measurements for a shoe print that didn't exist?

And remember how he wasn't charged with perjury or submitting false evidence? But was in fact taken seriously by the court?

This tells us that expert testimony in Italy, at least using this case as a baseline, is of no value. So why should I hold the defense to a different standard? A defense "expert witness" says something in an Italian court, I will judge it by the same standard as the prosecution, which is to say I will not give it any credence on its own whatsoever.

The only worthwhile evidence in this case is that which can be independently judged, verified, and considered, or was accepted by all sides, or was accepted unanimously by every court.

Since I am not an expert in judging precise forensic measurements of footprints on fuzzy dynamically shaped bathmats, I would have to take Vinci at his word that it excludes Raffaele Sollecito. Based on my experience with Italian courts, I am not prepared to take any Italian expert witness at their word. I think that is a reasonable conclusion on my part.
 
I'm assuming you're being tongue in cheek when you say "Vinci was paid by the defense, so of course he's going to find in favor of the defense."

Yes, it would have been compatible with many feet, including perhaps MK's ..ahem..'boyfriend, Giacomo Silenzi.

"If we go by what the defense claims, we might as well say AK and RS are innocent because they say so."

Can you clarify what you mean by this? I've read it several times and it makes no sense to me.


Ahem, just saying....

The defence .... is labouring under a severe disadvantage. The public (including the jury of course) believe that the police and the prosecution are truly disinterested, examining the evidence dispassionately and coming to a rational and well-supported conclusion about who committed the crime. They believe that exculpatory evidence will be given due weight and that if something emerges which shows pretty conclusively that they're on the wrong track they will back off and reassess, no matter how promising their initial line of thinking appeared to be.

Conversely, everyone (including the jury) assumes (probably quite rightly) that the defence is as biassed as hell. That their absolute objective is to get their client off, and that they will engage all the tricks in the book to do that.

Both of these positions seem to me to be wildly wrong. The police, as we've seen time and time again...., latch on to someone who appears to them to be a plausible fall-guy, and then proceed to construct a case around him (or occasionally her) regardless of the amount of exculpatory evidence they uncover and regardless of the amount of incriminating evidence they find against someone else.

On the other hand, defence advocates seem to me to be failing their clients time and time again. .... It takes a lot of time and effort to get a secure grasp of the facts in a complicated case ..., and you only have to read The Secret Barrister to realise the difficulties even when the defence advocate is actually trying. The cosy idea of Rumpole cogitating about the cases over breakfast and suddenly realising the extra bit of evidence that will prove his client innocent and going out and getting it is a complete myth.
 
Last edited:
Ok so my only experience with the Italian justice system is this case, so I'm going by what I've seen.

So like remember when a prosecution expert witness, Rinaldi or w/e, submitted his report and it was accepted into the court case? And his forensic findings were that a woman sized shoeprint was found in blood on Meredith's pillow? Like from a Lady's ASICS shoe or whatever?

And if you went and actually looked at photographs of the pillow, you could see, with your very own eyes, the shoeprint in question was clearly from Rudy's Nike's? Like it was self evident? And the prosecution expert was very clearly arbitrarily picking overlapping prints from Rudy's shoes and using those as new borders to create measurements for a shoe print that didn't exist?

And remember how he wasn't charged with perjury or submitting false evidence? But was in fact taken seriously by the court?

This tells us that expert testimony in Italy, at least using this case as a baseline, is of no value. So why should I hold the defense to a different standard? A defense "expert witness" says something in an Italian court, I will judge it by the same standard as the prosecution, which is to say I will not give it any credence on its own whatsoever.

The only worthwhile evidence in this case is that which can be independently judged, verified, and considered, or was accepted by all sides, or was accepted unanimously by every court.

Since I am not an expert in judging precise forensic measurements of footprints on fuzzy dynamically shaped bathmats, I would have to take Vinci at his word that it excludes Raffaele Sollecito. Based on my experience with Italian courts, I am not prepared to take any Italian expert witness at their word. I think that is a reasonable conclusion on my part.

Of course Rinaldi's opinion on the 'ladies size 37" was admitted into the court because that was his finding. It doesn't mean the court accepted it as correct. In fact, Massei apparently did not accept Rinaldi's finding because he does not list it in his MR as evidence against Knox. He doesn't even mention it.

Rinaldi was not charged with perjury or submitting false evidence because he neither committed perjury nor knowingly submitted false evidence; he was simply wrong in his professional opinion. There's nothing illegal about not being very good at your job.

On the other hand, I will say that I believe Stefanoni committed an ethical violation (withholding vital information) at the very least when she failed to report all the negative TMB results and kept referring to the 'luminol revealed' footprints. It's my firm belief that she did not "forget" those extremely important to the case results but consciously chose not to reveal them until she was confronted with her own SAL cards.
 
Rinaldi was not charged with perjury or submitting false evidence because he neither committed perjury nor knowingly submitted false evidence; he was simply wrong in his professional opinion. There's nothing illegal about not being very good at your job.

There is though, it's called gross negligence.
 
There's clearly no standard for the quality of expert testimony, or consequences for contriving evidence based on nothing. If Rinaldi can claim Rudy's Nike's are Lady's ASICS based on nothing, Vinci can claim a bloody bathmat print totally excludes Raffaele Sollecito based on nothing. I really don't see how one could claim otherwise? Since that's just basic deductive reasoning.
 
There's clearly no standard for the quality of expert testimony, or consequences for contriving evidence based on nothing. If Rinaldi can claim Rudy's Nike's are Lady's ASICS based on nothing, Vinci can claim a bloody bathmat print totally excludes Raffaele Sollecito based on nothing. I really don't see how one could claim otherwise? Since that's just basic deductive reasoning.

You're starting from a false premise: Rinaldi didn't base his opinion on 'nothing'.
You can read on what he based his finding on page 342/343 of the Massei Report. Vinci also did not base his findings on 'nothing'. He gave a very clear and well founded explanation for his finding on the bath mat. You can also read that in the Massei report. It immediately follows Rinaldi's explanation in Massei's MR. Sorry, but that's not basic deductive reasoning; it's faulty reasoning based on a faulty premise.
 
We have several examples in this case of the prosecution allowing witnesses to commit obvious perjury or submit false evidence:

-Vulcano Gerardo Pasquale
-Officer Battistelli
-Antonio Curatolo
-Marco Quintavalle

Just to name the obvious and self evident ones. There is no integrity in this court with regards to the witnesses brought to testify in it. I don't see why it should be any different for the defense. Amanda is innocent because the evidence we can independently verify for ourselves proves who committed the crime and who did not. Not because of defense witness testimony.
 
You're starting from a false premise: Rinaldi didn't base his opinion on 'nothing'.
You can read on what he based his finding on page 342/343 of the Massei Report.

Lol is contriving bs "something" now?

taATMMM.jpg


You can look at the print with your eyes and see it is a perfect match for Rudy's shoes. Turning this into a lady's shoeprint, because it's convenient for your employer's findings, is bordering on perjury/submitting false evidence.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom