The Trump Presidency: Sweet/Sweat 16

[MRC_Hans]

I can’t believe this is still going on. It’s quite simple, if I worked for this company and I took home more money as a result of attending the rally than alt. Universe me who did everything exactly the same but didn’t attend the rally, then I was paid to attend.

But in principle^(TM) it is different, because ...reasons.

Hans

 

[plague311]

But in principle^(TM) it is different, because ...reasons.

Hans

You always have to bring that up, don't you?

 

[Segnosaur]

But in principle(TM) it is different, because ...reasons.

You always have to bring that up, don't you?

Maybe you need a good right(TM) to take care of the reasons.

 

[Ladewig]

Whatever

I’m not sure that is the right whatever.

 

[Ladewig]

Nevermind

 

[The Man]

It's less money than usual if they don't go to a Trump rally and act like they support him.

Hair-split all you want. The practical difference from being paid to go is nil.

Technically since they had to scan in to meet the time worked requirement for overtime they were specifically paid to go.

 

[The Man]

Sorry not going to go all the way back to the start, but I assume that this is about the Shell workers.

This really is a beat up by the media. It's a result of the way that the pay system works.

The workers would generally work more hours than their 40, thus they would get overtime, but the policy of the company is that if they took time off during the week, then they would not be entitled to get over time for the "extra hours".

So, is a worker worked 50 hours, then normally they would get 40 normal and 10 overtime. If they took a paid day off, then they would get 48 hours normal pay, losing the overtime for the extra eight hours.

Now to the Trump visit. Because the factory was shut down for the visit the workers were given the option of taking the time off or if they were on site then they needed to be at the visit. From a company and security point of view they don't want people wandering about the factory while the President is there.

This is why the result was be there or lose overtime. It was a quirk of the company's policies, mixed with the security requirements of the visit.

There was no attempt to bribe or force people to attend, it was just a bad result from two policies that have been in place for decades.

Then they should have been paid the same if they attended or not. Also it was made clear in the memo that not attending would result in no overtime on Friday as well as explicitly stating the unions intent to show solidarity with the Trump campaign. So not an "attempt" but just what they did.

 

[plague311]

Then they should have been paid the same if they attended or not. Also it was made clear in the memo that not attending would result in no overtime on Friday as well as explicitly stating the unions intent to show solidarity with the Trump campaign. So not an "attempt" but just what they did.

It would actually result in no pay at all on Tuesday The only way they could receive any type of pay at all would be to use their PTO\Vacation time. If they didn't do that they wouldn't receive any compensation at all for Tuesday. It wouldn't count against them as it would be considered an excused day off.

ETA: Changed my Friday to Tuesday to reflect my error with the days as per noted below by TGF.

 

[The Greater Fool]

It would actually result in no pay at all on Friday. The only way they could receive any type of pay at all would be to use their PTO\Vacation time. If they didn't do that they wouldn't receive any compensation at all for Friday. It wouldn't count against them as it would be considered an excused day off.

The event was on a Tuesday.

If the worker attended the rally on Tuesday, they would be paid 8 hours on Tuesday, which counted as hours worked for overtime calculations later in the week.

If the worked didn't attend the rally on Tuesday, even if they received PTO/Vacation for Tuesday such would not be considered 'hours worked' for overtime calculations later in the week.

The contract for the employees included a normal work week of 56 hours per week, with 16 of those hours being overtime. Anyone not attending the rally would only be able to get 8 hours of overtime that week rather than the normal 16 hours.

 

[The Man]

True, but as I pointed out numerous times they weren't hired to attend. They were forced to attend or see at least part of their pay docked.

No one's pay was docked and no one was forced to attend. They were just paid more to attend. Not meeting the required worked hours for OT is not having your pay "docked". It happens all the time when OT is part of a regular work schedule. Take a paid sick day or PTO and that time doesn't count to OT. I'm on PTO for two weeks in September, still the same hours but no OT since PTO doesn't count towards hours work for OT. At no time over that period is my pay being docked.

 

[The Man]

It would actually result in no pay at all on Tuesday The only way they could receive any type of pay at all would be to use their PTO\Vacation time. If they didn't do that they wouldn't receive any compensation at all for Tuesday. It wouldn't count against them as it would be considered an excused day off.

ETA: Changed my Friday to Tuesday to reflect my error with the days as per noted below by TGF.

I'm still not sure if they had to use PTO or not but barring any evidence to the contrary we have to assume that they did have to use PTO to get paid for Tuesday (at all) if they didn't attend. Again either way the memo was explicit no attendance (by scan in) Tuesday meant no overtime pay Friday.

 

[plague311]

No one's pay was docked and no one was forced to attend. They were just paid more to attend. Not meeting the required worked hours for OT is not having your pay "docked". It happens all the time when OT is part of a regular work schedule. Take a paid sick day or PTO and that time doesn't count to OT. I'm on PTO for two weeks in September, still the same hours but no OT since PTO doesn't count towards hours work for OT. At no time over that period is my pay being docked.

You're given the choice to work during that time though. If the employees didn't want to use their PTO or Paid sick time, they were not given any money at all for that time. You still have the option of working as your job will still be there, in the case of these employees the plant won't working.

The options are:

A) Attend, and get paid + still have the option for OT
B) Don't attend, use PTO\Sick and get paid for the time, but no option for OT
C) Don't attend, don't get paid, but nothing counts against you and still no OT.

No other options exist, whereas you still have option D) Go to work like normal and get paid like normal.

I'm still not sure if they had to use PTO or not but barring any evidence to the contrary we have to assume that they did have to use PTO to get paid for Tuesday (at all) if they didn't attend. Again either way the memo was explicit no attendance (by scan in) Tuesday meant no overtime pay Friday.

The article I linked to up top said that they had to use PTO to get any pay at all. If they chose not to they could still not go to work that day but it would be unpaid, but excused.

 

[The Man]

I think we're violently agreeing. But having your pay docked for not attending is worse than being paid to attend.

Nothing was deducted from anyone's pay so no ones pay was docked. Not meeting the requirements for OT and thus not getting OT, even if your normally do get OT, is not having your pay docked. This kind of thing happens all the time in schedules that regularly have OT.

 

[plague311]

Nothing was deducted from anyone's pay so no ones pay was docked. Not meeting the requirements for OT and thus not getting OT, even if your normally do get OT, is not having your pay docked. This kind of thing happens all the time in schedules that regularly have OT.

But again, if they didn't go, and didn't use their PTO, then they didn't receive that pay. At all. Nothing.

 

[Segnosaur]

I think we're violently agreeing. But having your pay docked for not attending is worse than being paid to attend.

Nothing was deducted from anyone's pay so no ones pay was docked. Not meeting the requirements for OT and thus not getting OT, even if your normally do get OT, is not having your pay docked. This kind of thing happens all the time in schedules that regularly have OT.

If a person isn't meeting the hours they need to get overtime, I suspect usually its because the individual is taking some scheduled time off for personal reasons that have nothing to do with what is happening at work. (e.g. time off for vacation, medical leave, etc.)

This is different... A person who is opposed to listening to a racist make a political speech wouldn't be booking time off (and thus failing to meet the overtime requirement) because of personal considerations, but specifically because something that was happening at work, namely a requirement from the employer that they listen to Stubby McBonespurs lie.

 

[Cabbage]

I’m not sure that is the right whatever.

You know what? I think you're right.

Perhaps this will instead be the right whatever:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1zvhJRIM7M

 

[The Man]

You're given the choice to work during that time though. If the employees didn't want to use their PTO or Paid sick time, they were not given any money at all for that time. You still have the option of working as your job will still be there, in the case of these employees the plant won't working.

I can't work while on PTO and if I don't take it I lose it (only 40 hour carryover).

The options are:

A) Attend, and get paid + still have the option for OT
B) Don't attend, use PTO\Sick and get paid for the time, but no option for OT
C) Don't attend, don't get paid, but nothing counts against you and still no OT.

Sure, so what?

No other options exist, whereas you still have option D) Go to work like normal and get paid like normal.

See above for my limited options. Anyway, my example of my PTO was just an attempt to explain how such situations work. Having your pay docked means a deduction or fine is taken out. You are explicitly not paid for some time that you did work or used PTO for. Not being paid for time you didn't work, or time you didn't work but were paid for (PTO) not being counted as hours worked, even if you couldn't work, still isn't having your paid docked.

The article I linked to up top said that they had to use PTO to get any pay at all. If they chose not to they could still not go to work that day but it would be unpaid, but excused.

OK didn't see that, thanks.

 

[The Man]

If a person isn't meeting the hours they need to get overtime, I suspect usually its because the individual is taking some scheduled time off for personal reasons that have nothing to do with what is happening at work. (e.g. time off for vacation, medical leave, etc.)

This is different... A person who is opposed to listening to a racist make a political speech wouldn't be booking time off (and thus failing to meet the overtime requirement) because of personal considerations, but specifically because something that was happening at work, namely a requirement from the employer that they listen to Stubby McBonespurs lie.

Of course it is different than just taking PTO, the union explicitly wanted to show solidarity with Trump and paid workers specifically for that.

 

[The Man]

But again, if they didn't go, and didn't use their PTO, then they didn't receive that pay. At all. Nothing.

Yes, has anyone been saying otherwise?

Not being paid for hours you didn't work is not having your pay docked, again even if you couldn't work during that time.

 

[The Man]

I can’t believe this is still going on. It’s quite simple, if I worked for this company and I took home more money as a result of attending the rally than alt. Universe me who did everything exactly the same but didn’t attend the rally, then I was paid to attend.

But in principle^(TM) it is different, because ...reasons.

Hans

That's most likely the intent of doing it that way. Some plausible deniability to the fact that they were paid to attend. I find it hard to believe anyone would fall for it. Instead of the union making a donation it provides attendees at the rally. I can only hope that campaign finance laws count it as a donation.