What we mean when we talk about racism

[dann]

The thing I always wonder about racial separatists - how many categories would they divide people into?

Whatever might fit their purpose. Since it's not a rational idea in the first place, it's a little like interpreting the words of God.

 

[dann]

Yeah the number of people who think racism is justified if you're legit angry at a minority is bothersome.

Fat-shaming, race-shaming, class-shaming, sex-shaming ...

 

[JoeMorgue]

Fat-shaming, race-shaming, class-shaming, sex-shaming ...

Your point?

 

[The Norseman]

A really good fairy tale includes crystal balls and magic wands.

Why is this directed at me?

I'm just going on precisely what "your side" is saying...

If she was just following the crowd, chanting what they were chanting without grasping the racially charged elements then her particular intentions may have just been to heckle an opposing player.

 

[Thermal]

Or say, and I'm just totally speaking hypothetically here, to paint on swastika on your Jewish neighbors house but it totally not being racist because you didn't know your neighbor was Jewish you thought he was just a jerk.

Or say, and I'm just totally not speaking hypothetically here, go hang out with some people of different races for a bit. Younger guys especially. You'll note the n-word is used exactly like m-f'er or cabron , sometimes playfully and sometimes in anger. 'S true.

If the idea of hanging out with darkies just terrifies you, just watch Pulp Fiction.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Ah yes the "But why can they say it and we can't" sub-argument. Figure we'd land on that hairsplit sooner or later.

I can't even be bothered to put the brain cells into figuring out what "go watch Pulp Fiction" is supposed to mean.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Fat-shaming, race-shaming, class-shaming, sex-shaming ...

There are some differences in those things. Not everything that is mean and hurts feelings is equal. Racism has been used to justify murder, genocide, slavery, and countless atrocities and injustices. Fat-shaming hasn't exactly had quite the same impact, historically or in current society. Hence calling someone fat may be mean but it's hardly on the level of calling them a [insert racial slur of choice].

 

[Thermal]

Ah yes the "But why can they say it and we can't" sub-argument. Figure we'd land on that hairsplit sooner or later.

Good thing no one is saying anything remotely like that, then.

I can't even be bothered to put the brain cells into figuring out what "go watch Pulp Fiction" is supposed to mean.

Don't strain yourself. Cliff notes version: black and white guys using the n-word casually, in what appears to be an entirely non-racist way. That movie is well-known enough to be a commonly recognized example.

But seriously: add some melanin to your social group. You might be surprised that the White people in the twittersphere have it wrong.

 

[dann]

Fat-shaming, race-shaming, class-shaming, sex-shaming ...

Your point?

It is obviously racist to call somebody the N-word. People hurl these words at each other in order to hurt. If they are 13-year-olds, I would first make absolutely sure that they know what they are doing:
1) Why do you want to be hurtful in this situation?
2) Are you aware of the tradition that you join when you use that particular word? I.e. in the case of the N-word, is it actually that person's race that you have a problem with? If it isn't, then why use it? (If it is, it will be a much longer discussion!)

But I think that there's a difference between, on the one hand, somebody yelling it at a soccer match where a 13-year-old who wants to fit in uses the word because apparently it's about humiliating the opposite team - not that that isn't stupid enough in itself - and on the other hand, somebody yelling it at a racist rally. (Portland, Charlottesville)
A 13-year-old may have (actual!) black friends and never consider using the word against them or in any other contexts than the stadium: against the opposite team - sometimes even forgetting about their own team having beloved players of the same color.
It's still the time to have a serious conversation about the racism and attitude, but ... see my questions.

I compare it with fat-shaming because that also has to do with an attempt to humiliate others. You won't see any obese obese footballers, but a 13-year-old with one or more obese friends might still call somebody else fat to demean them. In that situation, it would also be time for a serious talk to find out what is at play here: Does the young person in general look down on somebody for being obese? (Probably not, if he or she has obese friend.) So why use it as a slur against anybody? What would their obese friends think if they heard it?

I think that you would need to have similar conversations if you heard a 13-year-old call somebody a loser (classism) or gay/effeminate (sexism). A 13-year-old may not be totally aware of why they use the slurs, but it's extremely important that they are made aware.

 

[dann]

There are some differences in those things. Not everything that is mean and hurts feelings is equal. Racism has been used to justify murder, genocide, slavery, and countless atrocities and injustices. Fat-shaming hasn't exactly had quite the same impact, historically or in current society. Hence calling someone fat may be mean but it's hardly on the level of calling them a [insert racial slur of choice].

There definitely are! And it depends not only on history but also on geography. In the early 1960s, fat-shaming was a real thing in my country with real victims (no actual casualties, but probably a suicide here and there). A boy in school who didn't quite live up to our expectations of how "a real boy" was supposed to behave would also be taunted mercilessly.
Racism occurred mainly in the fairy tales of the times (as I've described) because everybody was white. You might be teased if your hair was red or if you had freckles, but it didn't go any further than that. It was still stupid, but a fairly victim-less crime - unlike fifty years earlier when Denmark still had colonies with populations consisting mainly of former slaves from Africa, and unlike the late 1960s onwards when you began to hear racial slurs against immigrants from Turkey, Yugoslavia and Pakistan, who stuck out from the pale Danes: "fejlfarver" (off-colored).

 

[psionl0]

Do you think you made a point there? I'm still stuck on how your crowd of people yelling racial insults, so much so that children in the group join in without understanding what they are yelling, is evidence of people who aren't racist being unjustly labeled. Or is this the "it's ok to yell racial insults if you really are upset" excuse mentioned?

Why is this directed at me?

I'm just going on precisely what "your side" is saying...

If she was just following the crowd, chanting what they were chanting without grasping the racially charged elements then her particular intentions may have just been to heckle an opposing player.

You are both describing a scenario that exists only in your own minds. This was just one girl who yelled out "ape" - not a whole crowd.

And that incident is totally separate from the crowd booing which was the only thing that they got labeled "racist" for. It was not booing and yelling racist remarks.

 

[wareyin]

You are both describing a scenario that exists only in your own minds. This was just one girl who yelled out "ape" - not a whole crowd.

So we're sticking with the ludicrous claim that this 13 year old yelled out a racist insult all on her own, without knowing what it meant. Right.

And that incident is totally separate from the crowd booing which was the only thing that they got labeled "racist" for. It was not booing and yelling racist remarks.

By "totally separate from" you actually meant to type "such an integral part of that even a guy spinning unbelievable stories about it still has to include", right?

 

[The Norseman]

You are both describing a scenario that exists only in your own minds. This was just one girl who yelled out "ape" - not a whole crowd.

You absolutely do not know this as fact. I had no idea who you were even talking about at first and I read some random stories about these events, I saw you were already giving a biased account of what happened, especially intimating that he was acting in ways which invited these kinds of comments in the first place. For example, he was "making spear-throwing gestures at the audience" and similar things (which again, according to what I read, he didn't do that but once) which would, I guess in your mind, make it okay and non-racist to call him an "ape."

And that incident is totally separate from the crowd booing which was the only thing that they got labeled "racist" for. It was not booing and yelling racist remarks.

And you know this how?

There was one event in which Goodes called out a heckler who happened to be this girl in question but according to other news events it was not only this crowd but many others which brought consideration of racist name-calling.

I mean, we all get it. You have volunteered to try and find anything at all to try and demonstrate the veracity of theprestige's original claim.

You know what? With this young girl, I'd even maybe agree with your point, to a small degree; taking the girl at her word, even Goodes himself accepted her apology and they apparently even had a face-to-face about it. So while the term 'racist' may not have applied to this girl, once she was called out on her behavior which lead to her being called a racist, she could learn about what racism is and how just mindlessly repeating other people in a crowd isn't ultimately the best sort of behavior one should do in order to demonstrate that one is not actually a racist.

What's more unsurprising is your repeated minimization of the crowds of multiple games behavior as just "booing" kinda critically leaving out the racist parts to make it seem not racist and an overreaction.

 

[psionl0]

You absolutely do not know this as fact. I had no idea who you were even talking about at first and I read some random stories about these events, I saw you were already giving a biased account of what happened, especially intimating that he was acting in ways which invited these kinds of comments in the first place. For example, he was "making spear-throwing gestures at the audience" and similar things (which again, according to what I read, he didn't do that but once) which would, I guess in your mind, make it okay and non-racist to call him an "ape."

I have heard of "reading between the lines" but this is ridiculous!

If Goodes had singled out this girl while many others in the crowd were also yelling out "ape" then don't you think that this would have been even more newsworthy?

And you know this how?

< ....... snip ....... >

What's more unsurprising is your repeated minimization of the crowds of multiple games behavior as just "booing" kinda critically leaving out the racist parts to make it seem not racist and an overreaction.

Commentator after commentator said that "anybody who booed Goodes is a racist". Why do you refuse to believe this?

 

[The Norseman]

I have heard of "reading between the lines" but this is ridiculous!

If Goodes had singled out this girl while many others in the crowd were also yelling out "ape" then don't you think that this would have been even more newsworthy?

That was what I read; he singled out one of them. One. Maybe it was because she was closest. Who knows?

Commentator after commentator said that "anybody who booed Goodes is a racist". Why do you refuse to believe this?

I haven't read "commentator after commentator" saying that. And considering that there were, in fact, at least several people in the crowds shouting racial slurs in amongst the booing, it makes sense to focus on the racial slurs part.

BTW, what am I reading between which lines?

 

[psionl0]

That was what I read; he singled out one of them. One. Maybe it was because she was closest. Who knows?

Show us the source that you read that from.

And considering that there were, in fact, at least several people in the crowds shouting racial slurs in amongst the booing, it makes sense to focus on the racial slurs part.

Show us the source that you read that from.

 

[xjx388]

It is obviously racist to call somebody the N-word. People hurl these words at each other in order to hurt. If they are 13-year-olds, I would first make absolutely sure that they know what they are doing:

1) Why do you want to be hurtful in this situation?

2) Are you aware of the tradition that you join when you use that particular word? I.e. in the case of the N-word, is it actually that person's race that you have a problem with? If it isn't, then why use it? (If it is, it will be a much longer discussion!)



But I think that there's a difference between, on the one hand, somebody yelling it at a soccer match where a 13-year-old who wants to fit in uses the word because apparently it's about humiliating the opposite team - not that that isn't stupid enough in itself - and on the other hand, somebody yelling it at a racist rally. (Portland, Charlottesville)

A 13-year-old may have (actual!) black friends and never consider using the word against them or in any other contexts than the stadium: against the opposite team - sometimes even forgetting about their own team having beloved players of the same color.

It's still the time to have a serious conversation about the racism and attitude, but ... see my questions.



I compare it with fat-shaming because that also has to do with an attempt to humiliate others. You won't see any obese obese footballers, but a 13-year-old with one or more obese friends might still call somebody else fat to demean them. In that situation, it would also be time for a serious talk to find out what is at play here: Does the young person in general look down on somebody for being obese? (Probably not, if he or she has obese friend.) So why use it as a slur against anybody? What would their obese friends think if they heard it?



I think that you would need to have similar conversations if you heard a 13-year-old call somebody a loser (classism) or gay/effeminate (sexism). A 13-year-old may not be totally aware of why they use the slurs, but it's extremely important that they are made aware.

You’ve articulated it well here. A 13 YO CHILD yelling racist stuff is quite different from an adult yelling racist stuff. Did that child really need to be called out in that way, escorted off by police and questioned without her parents?

I think people are losing sight of the fact that we are talking about a child here. Children are naive and don’t always know what they are doing.

 

[psionl0]

You’ve articulated it well here. A 13 YO CHILD yelling racist stuff is quite different from an adult yelling racist stuff. Did that child really need to be called out in that way, escorted off by police and questioned without her parents?

I think people are losing sight of the fact that we are talking about a child here. Children are naive and don’t always know what they are doing.

Not to mention that "ape" is not in the same category as the N word or "boy" which are well known terms of racial abuse. Prior to this incident, relatively few people would have known that Aboriginals were more sensitive about the word "ape" than they would have been about other abusive words.

 

[wareyin]

Not to mention that "ape" is not in the same category as the N word or "boy" which are well known terms of racial abuse. Prior to this incident, relatively few people would have known that Aboriginals were more sensitive about the word "ape" than they would have been about other abusive words.

Keep digging, you're doing great! Who would have known that well known and long used racist invectives were racist? It's obviously the sensitivity of the people on the receiving end of the racial slurs that's the problem! [/sarcasm]

 

[jimbob]

You are both describing a scenario that exists only in your own minds. This was just one girl who yelled out "ape" - not a whole crowd.

And that incident is totally separate from the crowd booing which was the only thing that they got labeled "racist" for. It was not booing and yelling racist remarks.

Except that the excuse for the girl is that she didn't realise (!) that it was a racial insult. This means that presumably she'd seen other people use it at Goodes. The alternative is that she'd see other people of Aboriginal descent being called apes and decided that Goodes was an appropriate target.

Either way, it's hardly evidence that racism didn't play a part.

And if you want a fairy story, how about believing that a convicted paedophile is innocent, when there are multiple other accusations against him? And who happens to have been instrumental in covering up abuse by other Catholic clergy.