Cont: Man shot, killed by off-duty Dallas police officer who walked into wrong apartment p2

[plague311]

It is an interesting discussion that is actually covering some of the same ground for the umpteenth time.
You might wish to read the last thread.

You want me to read a 50-60 page thread so I don't repeat stuff? Please feel free to not respond to any single one of my posts if you feel you've covered it too much. Until then, I'll continue my discussion as per usual. Thanks.

 

[plague311]

Do you live in an apartment block or a house? I'm going to repeat an earlier post because you seem to have missed it.

I currently live in a house. Up until about 10 years ago I lived in nothing but apartments. I didn't miss it, I saw it. It's just anecdotal so I didn't give it any weight.

I'll add that I likely would notice an unexpected red mat in front of what I thought was my door, pause to ask why it was there, and then realise I was on the wrong floor. In all the years I've lived in this block no one has ever gifted me a door mat.

As I said, an individual mistake...sure. I'll buy it. At the very lowest count having 3 mistakes strung together? Nope.

My buildings were even more generic than these ones. All white walls, same exact doors, and for 2 of my buildings we couldn't have door mats. I never once walked into the wrong apartment. I walked up to the wrong door a few times, but never once walked into or turned the door knob on the wrong apartment door.

ETA: Also, walking into the wrong door on your same floor might be a bit more believable. This would involve her not seeing the floor signs in the parking garage while she was driving, looking straight ahead, and going to a parking spot.

 

[Joe Random]

Can't actually think of one.
If the mistake is a reasonable one. And no other motives apparent. And the act would not be criminal if the perpetrator was not mistaken.

Strict liability crimes, especially sex with someone underage. I don't have a list of specifics handy, but there are some states where if the person is underage and shows you a fake ID showing them to be 18+, you're still on the hook for diddling a minor. What you thought, even if you had every reason in the world to believe was true, doesn't matter in those cases if you are in fact mistaken.

Edit to add : the above is just a casual aside. Doesn't change my view of Quickdraw's guilt in the case at hand.

 

[Drewbot]

A similar mistake of fact type case would be a police officer shooting a kid with a cap-gun or airsoft gun.

The cop thought it was a real gun in the situation and shot the person with it.

In this case, the cop thought it was a real intruder in their apartment, and shot the person.

Why is this different? If we allow for the mistake of going into the wrong apartment, is it not the same as mistaking a toy gun for a real gun?

 

[plague311]

If we allow for the mistake of going into the wrong apartment, is it not the same as mistaking a toy gun for a real gun?

No one but you is doing that, so no it's not.

ETA: It was her negligence that caused her to enter the wrong apartment, which means at the very minimum she's guilty of negligent homicide as that negligence lead to the death of an innocent man.

 

[Joe Random]

A similar mistake of fact type case would be a police officer shooting a kid with a cap-gun or airsoft gun.

The cop thought it was a real gun in the situation and shot the person with it.

In this case, the cop thought it was a real intruder in their apartment, and shot the person.

Why is this different? If we allow for the mistake of going into the wrong apartment, is it not the same as mistaking a toy gun for a real gun?

The difference (moral, not legal) would be coarse level vs. fine level target assessment. In one case your brain parses out 'person with a gun' based on data-points which actually fit that interpretation. It'd take more time to get to the level of 'oh, just an airsoft' or whatever, time which may or may not be reasonable to expect of the shooter, depending on the specifics of the situation.

In the case at hand you had a target assessment which consisted of 'person <BANG>'. Taking the time to discriminate between 'guy fixing my a/c', 'stranger sitting passively on my couch' and 'man rushing at me with something in his hand' is far far less demanding that what would be required to differentiate toy vs real gun, at least in most situations.

 

[Drewbot]

The defense will argue it was not negligence, it was reduced cognition due to lack of sleep.

They will call experts that will say the lack of sleep in this case would cause reduction in performance, which could be seen in the form of car accidents, poor decision making, lack of comprehension.

In your expert opinion, is going to the wrong apartment, with this level of sleep deprivation, a reasonably expected mistake, that her supervisors were aware of?

"YES."

 

[plague311]

The defense will argue it was not negligence, it was reduced cognition due to lack of sleep.

They will call experts that will say the lack of sleep in this case would cause reduction in performance, which could be seen in the form of car accidents, poor decision making, lack of comprehension.

In your expert opinion, is going to the wrong apartment, with this level of sleep deprivation, a reasonably expected mistake, that her supervisors were aware of?

"YES."

Cool story, bro.

They can argue whatever they want, but being awake for 16 hours doesn't cause sleep deprivation, as far as I know. Just because they argue it doesn't mean it will be believed as well. In fact, if the prosecution can come up with any other time that she was awake that long and didn't shoot someone it kind of shoots that defense to ****.

 

[Thermal]

A similar mistake of fact type case would be a police officer shooting a kid with a cap-gun or airsoft gun.

The cop thought it was a real gun in the situation and shot the person with it.

In this case, the cop thought it was a real intruder in their apartment, and shot the person.

Why is this different? If we allow for the mistake of going into the wrong apartment, is it not the same as mistaking a toy gun for a real gun?

Mistaking a fake gun for a real one is at least a perception of a threat to your life. Walking in on a maintenance worker is not a grievous threat, and it should have at least crossed her mind before killing Jean that she didn't own the property and others have rights to be there, unannounced in some circumstances.

If she gunned down a plumber repairing a leak, would you excuse her?

 

[plague311]

Mistaking a fake gun for a real one is at least a perception of a threat to your life. Walking in on a maintenance worker is not a grievous threat, and it should have at least crossed her mind before killing Jean that she didn't own the property and others have rights to be there, unannounced in some circumstances.

If she gunned down a plumber repairing a leak, would you excuse her?

*DISCLAIMER FOR DISTRACTED1, THIS MIGHT HAVE BEEN COVERED*

There's a video from someone in the same apartment that goes through the process of opening the door that blows the cover off of this sleep deprivation or wrong apartment nonsense. In order to get into the door you have to put the key into the lock, hold it, then when it turns green you have to turn the lock and go in. The doors also auto shuts fairly aggressively so there's really no reason to think the door was open, but anything is possible.

 

[Thermal]

*DISCLAIMER FOR DISTRACTED1, THIS MIGHT HAVE BEEN COVERED*

There's a video from someone in the same apartment that goes through the process of opening the door that blows the cover off of this sleep deprivation or wrong apartment nonsense. In order to get into the door you have to put the key into the lock, hold it, then when it turns green you have to turn the lock and go in. The doors also auto shuts fairly aggressively so there's really no reason to think the door was open, but anything is possible.

Last I recall, it is still unclear what exactly happened with the key. Guyger said her key didn't work, and the door was ajar. The doors should close strongly, assuming the self closing hinges are well adjusted. That's not really a guarantee, though. Depends more on how thorough the maintenance guy is. Just a hunch: I think it's likely she tried to open it, Jean got up and opened it to find out what the hell was going on, and she shot him while he was backing the **** up in cold fear of this crazy homicidal bitch. Fits the physical facts most neatly.

 

[Drewbot]

Last I recall, it is still unclear what exactly happened with the key. Guyger said her key didn't work, and the door was ajar. The doors should close strongly, assuming the self closing hinges are well adjusted. That's not really a guarantee, though. Depends more on how thorough the maintenance guy is. Just a hunch: I think it's likely she tried to open it, Jean got up and opened it to find out what the hell was going on, and she shot him while he was backing the **** up in cold fear of this crazy homicidal bitch. Fits the physical facts most neatly.

Possibly.

Another possibility is that Jean would leave the door ajar by turning the deadbolt, and having the bolt rest against the door jam. This is what we did in college, and I do when I stay in hotels so my wife or kid doesn't need to take a key to the pool.

Like this picture https://www.tripadvisor.com/Locatio...annah_Historic_District-Savannah_Georgia.html

 

[Thermal]

Possibly.

Another possibility is that Jean would leave the door ajar by turning the deadbolt, and having the bolt rest against the door jam. This is what we did in college, and I do when I stay in hotels so my wife or kid doesn't need to take a key to the pool.

Like this picture https://www.tripadvisor.com/Locatio...annah_Historic_District-Savannah_Georgia.html

Its possible, but I think unlikely. Who was he keeping the door open for? Wouldn't we have heard from them by now, if not on that night when they arrived to find their friend dead?

 

[The Norseman]

I blame it on Google.

Did you mean I blame it on Gogle?

The defense will argue it was not negligence, it was reduced cognition due to lack of sleep.

They will call experts that will say the lack of sleep in this case would cause reduction in performance, which could be seen in the form of car accidents, poor decision making, lack of comprehension.

In your expert opinion, is going to the wrong apartment, with this level of sleep deprivation, a reasonably expected mistake, that her supervisors were aware of?

"YES."

So? "I was just following orders" hasn't been an excuse for over seventy years now.If she knew or reasonably should have known that fatigue has such deleterious effects, then any resulting damages due to those effects are still her responsibility and hers alone.

 

[Whip]

And besides her being or not being a cop makes no difference.

1. If she was "in the moment" a cop, her training dictates that she IDENTIFIES THE GODDAMN TARGET before shooting.

2. If she was "in the moment" a citizen she still had a legal, moral, and hell logical mandate to IDENTIFY THE GODDAMN TARGET before shooting.

Citizen, cop, MIB secret agent... none of them are allowed to just fire into the dark.

But the racist apologist are demanding this lady remain "Schrodinger's Cop in Schrodinger's Situation" where the apartment is perfectly light enough for her see that there is someone in there but perfectly dark enough for her to not know he is unarmed oh and IT'S NOT HER GODDAMN APARTMENT, and when faced with the "threat" she just reflexively followed her "cop training" except the part about identifying the target and I need to be 100% clear here... that perfect balanced place DOES NOT GODDAMN EXIST.

If it's too dark to identify the target, you don't shoot. If it's light enough to identify the target it's light enough to identify the GODDAMN APARTMENT.

End of discussion. There is no weasel room in there. She either shot a man in his own apartment and SHE KNEW IT or she didn't properly identify the target.

Let it not be forgotten she had more than ample room to retreat and call for backup before engaging

 

[plague311]

Its possible, but I think unlikely. Who was he keeping the door open for? Wouldn't we have heard from them by now, if not on that night when they arrived to find their friend dead?

And, again, putting her key in the door should have caused the door to open a bit, then make some noise when she took the key out as it closed again; however, if she put her key in the lock then she was looking at the deadbolt. Why would a robber leave the door open? He's already in, and doesn't need the door ajar to get back out.

 

[Whip]

Are we projecting the most innocent activities we can on Jean, with confirmation bias, or looking levely?

sitting in one's own apartment watching tv is a crime? if not, it's an innocent activity. holy ****.

 

[Thermal]

sitting in one's own apartment watching tv is a crime? if not, it's an innocent activity. holy ****.

Don't criticize content. The move is to lob character assassinations about the typo in the last word.

 

[Thermal]

And, again, putting her key in the door should have caused the door to open a bit, then make some noise when she took the key out as it closed again; however, if she put her key in the lock then she was looking at the deadbolt. Why would a robber leave the door open? He's already in, and doesn't need the door ajar to get back out.

I could even give her a pass for not thinking that through in the moment. My objections start with the decision to draw her weapon. Sleepy head excuses go right out the window when you make a calculated decision to take a life.

 

[plague311]

I could even give her a pass for not thinking that through in the moment. My objections start with the decision to draw her weapon. Sleepy head excuses go right out the window when you make a calculated decision to take a life.

The only reason I disagree with this is because she shows repeated negligence previous to that particular point. Passing multiple signs that show what floor she's on, not noticing the doormat, not noticing the lit up sign with the apt # on it, her key didn't work (it had to have flashed red), the door being a jar.

There were enough red flags that they can't be written off, not that you're doing that.