Cont: Brexit: Now What? Magic 8 Ball's up

[Information Analyst]

And that is a somewhat problematic thing for the EU to agree to. But why should those laws be any safer than all the ones about open borders that the vote was against? How separable are individual nations with regards to deals with other nations from the EU as a whole?

The EU was fine with it, because it was a (long) pre-existing agreement. It's not comparable to the issue of open borders, because it's not about every-day cross-border movement, even though it previously facilitated that.

 

[Information Analyst]

No Surrender. No Gays. No Catholics. No Abortion. No Pope.

No surprises.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The EU was fine with it, because it was a (long) pre-existing agreement. It's not comparable to the issue of open borders, because it's not about every-day cross-border movement, even though it previously facilitated that.

We will have to wait and see what kind of permanent agreement can be negotiated then. That hadn't even been a part of the negotiations yet.

 

[lomiller]

The EU was fine with it, because it was a (long) pre-existing agreement.

The biggest reason the EU was fine with the UK and Ireland having a completely open border is it’s nearly exactly what the EU how was designed to function internally and how it wants all borders to be internally. If there was an issue, it would have been that the UK didn’t do the same for every EU nation.

Replicating that relationship for a nation outside the EU is where things are going to become difficult. There are solutions available that would allow it, but these require concession on the part of the UK and the UK isn’t willing to make these concessions. From the perspective of a neutral third party, it seems to me like the EU is starting out from a very flexible open position and has ready made offers that would be very difficult or even impossible to get from anyone else in the world. The UK is still demanding more even though the EU has no practice way to accommodate those demands.

 

[Information Analyst]

The biggest reason the EU was fine with the UK and Ireland having a completely open border is it’s nearly exactly what the EU how was designed to function internally and how it wants all borders to be internally. If there was an issue, it would have been that the UK didn’t do the same for every EU nation.

There's a lot more to it than open borders.

 

[lomiller]

There's a lot more to it than open borders.

Perhaps so, but unless they are relevant to Brexit why would they matter in this discussion? There ARE problems having an open border between two countries that have completely different trade, customs and product standards. Since there are problems related to the border any Brexit deal will need to address these problems.
As of right now there are two workable approaches:
1) Implement a border
2) Keep the UK in trade/customs/travel agreements.

 

[Castro]

British state visits aren't what they used to be anymore

 

[GlennB]

British state visits aren't what they used to be anymore

OK, they are funny captions, but that oaf really put his foot on the little table? Dear FSM

 

[Jack by the hedge]

OK, they are funny captions, but that oaf really put his foot on the little table? Dear FSM

I read that Macron rather set him up by joking that the table could make a footstool and Boris just touched his shoe on it for a moment.

 

[GlennB]

I read that Macron rather set him up by joking that the table could make a footstool and Boris just touched his shoe on it for a moment.

Ah, OK. Can I still hate him though?

 

[Giz]

I am in the USA, so I hesitate to offer my opinion. But so what, I offer uninformed opinions all the time.

From my perspective and understanding it appears that a hard border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland would inevitably stir up the issues, and possibly the violence, associated with the Troubles. The practical problems would be enough to create strong anger in the Irish population and likely damage their economy. The way many Tories have publicly minimized these issues hasn't helped.

But more so, having both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland in the EU, by producing a very soft political border, significantly toned down the enormously sensitive issue of Irish unity. It made the political division between the two Irelands less part of peoples' day to day experience. Those who wished to could even pretend that it was a step toward the ultimate unification of Ireland without having to actually do so and thereby avoiding a strong counter-response from Northern Ireland. But a hard border would reverse this, and imposed by the UK, would surely be viewed by those in the Republic as yet another a slap in their face. It would highlight the continued separateness of Northern Ireland and in a confrontational way that would be evident every day for those seeking to cross between the two countries for personal or economic reasons.

I see this as an enormous risk for violence, with the most radical arms of the IRA being the only ones who will benefit. IMO this is why a backstop is crucial.

Are my concerns shared or stupid?

Is the democratic desire for the UK to go "Ourselves Alone" to be thwarted by Sinn Fein's paramilitary gunmen?

I assume the sectarians don't do irony.

 

[Castro]

I read that Macron rather set him up by joking that the table could make a footstool and Boris just touched his shoe on it for a moment.

Thanks for the tip. I found the picture cool and funny but the Guardian should really add this little explanation to the article (or under the pic) to avoid any misinterpretation.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Ah, OK. Can I still hate him though?

Oh, sure. Just take "disrespect for other people's furniture" off the list of reasons to hate him. Maybe move it to the "not yet proven" list.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Is the democratic desire for the UK to go "Ourselves Alone"

Ah so the idea is to totally close all borders and let no one and nothing into or out of the country. Well that is one option I guess.

It was really their fault to begin with anyway, expecting an englishman to honor an treaty?

 

[Nessie]

Just back from a short visit to NI and Eire. Flicking through various local newspapers and there is a lot of concern about increasing tensions and a rise in paramilitary activity. There were also various reports of how relations between the DUP and Sinn Fein have worsened and the chances of the NI Assembly reconvening is very remote.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...-gulf-between-dup-and-sinn-fein-38421442.html

Ironically, it is now clearer where the border is, than at any other time I have visited, because of the signs demanding an open border.

The concern is that because those living in Ireland are in effect not being listened to and what they want is looking increasingly unlikely, the now quite fragile peace will collapse.

 

[Giz]

Ah so the idea is to totally close all borders and let no one and nothing into or out of the country. Well that is one option I guess.

It was really their fault to begin with anyway, expecting an englishman to honor an treaty?

I’m going to guess that you don’t know what Sinn Fein means.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I’m going to guess that you don’t know what Sinn Fein means.

The political party whose refusal to attend parliament lets Boris have a majority. The paramilitary being the IRA though of course unionist paramilitaries are good guys and in no way ever at fault for anything.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The concern is that because those living in Ireland are in effect not being listened to and what they want is looking increasingly unlikely, the now quite fragile peace will collapse.

But you have to understand that is in no way the fault of the english unilaterally throwing out the GFA.

 

[Nessie]

But you have to understand that is in no way the fault of the english unilaterally throwing out the GFA.

There is more concern about what is happening in Ireland with MEPs and politicians in the USA, than there is at Westminster.

 

[Giz]

The political party whose refusal to attend parliament lets Boris have a majority. The paramilitary being the IRA though of course unionist paramilitaries are good guys and in no way ever at fault for anything.

The

Literal

Meaning

Of

Sinn

Fein


Google it, then you will understand my post