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Jeffrey Epstein arrested for child sex trafficking

angrysoba said:
“Hey, let’s murder Jeffrey Epstein and make it look like suicide. Also, for extra fun, let’s ‘hide it in plain sight’ by getting the coroner to say multiple bones were fractured when any schoolboy knows this is as likely as the David Kelly suicide or the JFK magic bullet...mwahahahahahaha!”
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You wouldn't need the coroner to be "in on it".

You'd just need the coroner to be told he was alone in his cell the whole time. If he was alone, there's literally no way it was anything but suicide.
 
kellyb said:
When people have convulsions, it's not actually violently thrashing around. Epileptics don't generally hurt themselves from convulsions themselves - just the falling down and hitting their heads (and biting their tongues.)

It's exceedingly rare for convulsions themselves to cause bone breaking:
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...e_fracture/links/09e41508e8830b975c000000.pdf
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Though I appreciate your response, I'm still thinking that there is a difference between "normal" convulsions and the kinds of things that can happen during the process of dying. Further, my thoughts were less on how the body could break bones per se and more towards the body being limited in some way, such as a sheet tight around the neck, and thrashing around, suddenly stopped short by the ligature. The mental image I had was of the person leaning forward against the improvised noose in order to suffocate and when losing consciousness, jerking back with tremendous force in order to free the windpipe and being stopped short of flipping onto the back.

My question was if that was plausible.

Again, not saying either / or in this instance and not implying any factual resolution nor conspiracy theory.
 
The Norseman said:
Though I appreciate your response, I'm still thinking that there is a difference between "normal" convulsions and the kinds of things that can happen during the process of dying. Further, my thoughts were less on how the body could break bones per se and more towards the body being limited in some way, such as a sheet tight around the neck, and thrashing around, suddenly stopped short by the ligature. The mental image I had was of the person leaning forward against the improvised noose in order to suffocate and when losing consciousness, jerking back with tremendous force in order to free the windpipe and being stopped short of flipping onto the back.

My question was if that was plausible.

Again, not saying either / or in this instance and not implying any factual resolution nor conspiracy theory.
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I don't think there is. If anything, the convulsions that happen at death are milder.

https://www.merckmanuals.com/home/fundamentals/death-and-dying/when-death-is-near
At the time of death, a few muscle contractions may occur, and the chest may heave as if to breathe. The heart may beat a few minutes after breathing stops, and a brief seizure may occur. Unless the dying person has a contagious infectious disease that poses a risk to others, family members should be assured that touching, caressing, and holding the body of a dying person, even for a while after the death, are acceptable.
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kellyb said:
You wouldn't need the coroner to be "in on it".

You'd just need the coroner to be told he was alone in his cell the whole time. If he was alone, there's literally no way it was anything but suicide.
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If the coroner did that they would have been guilty of professional misconduct.

I mean that is a textbook example of how stuff is covered up: someone, who is notionally supposed to investigate and determine something based on facts, really just writes down something that they have been ordered to by their superior.
 
Arcade22 said:
If the coroner did that they would have been guilty of professional misconduct.

I mean that is a textbook example of how stuff is covered up: someone, who is notionally supposed to investigate and determine something based on facts, really just writes down something that they have been ordered to by their superior.
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I don't think it would be ordered by a superior, if the coroner decides to rule suicide vs murder based on taking the reports from the guards at their word.

I mean, if they decided to rule it as murder, on what basis could they claim to disregard the facts of the matter as reported by the guards?

"In light of the multiple broken bones in his neck which strongly indicates murder, the report that he was alone in his cell is suspect, because we already know the guards faked the paperwork saying they were checking on him every 30 minutes, so they might be lying about him being housed alone in the cell at the time of death, too" isn't the sort of thing I'd feel completely comfortable writing down, imaging the headlines which would result from that.
 
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kellyb said:
You wouldn't need the coroner to be "in on it".

You'd just need the coroner to be told he was alone in his cell the whole time. If he was alone, there's literally no way it was anything but suicide.
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I'm no expert on official autopsy procedure, but i would be surprised if coroners were obligated to take anything to to them at face value if it contradicted the injuries on the deceased and I would be surprised if murder by strangulation and self hanging resulted in injuries that look indistinguishable. I would expect a struggle to leave injuries quite different from flailing around during hanging.

I mean, if a coroner were told a dead person was alone, but found the cause of death to be 52 stab wounds in the back, it seems a bit silly to expect they would need to publish a report saying that the person stabbed themselves in the back 52 times just because they were told the person was alone.
 
Cavemonster said:
I'm no expert on official autopsy procedure, but i would be surprised if coroners were obligated to take anything to to them at face value if it contradicted the injuries on the deceased and I would be surprised if murder by strangulation and self hanging resulted in injuries that look indistinguishable. I would expect a struggle to leave injuries quite different from flailing around during hanging.

I mean, if a coroner were told a dead person was alone, but found the cause of death to be 52 stab wounds in the back, it seems a bit silly to expect they would need to publish a report saying that the person stabbed themselves in the back 52 times just because they were told the person was alone.
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That's what I was saying earlier, about how for it to be ruled murder, it would have to be beyond simply implausible. It would have had to be on par with a bullet wound to the head in a cell where no gun was found.

It really sounds to me like if he'd been discovered in a bedroom at a large party like this, it would probably be ruled a murder, based on the broken neck bones (assuming the WaPo report is correct on that point) and the fact that other people had access to him.
 
Cavemonster said:
I'm no expert on official autopsy procedure, but i would be surprised if coroners were obligated to take anything to to them at face value if it contradicted the injuries on the deceased and I would be surprised if murder by strangulation and self hanging resulted in injuries that look indistinguishable. I would expect a struggle to leave injuries quite different from flailing around during hanging.
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So would I, which is another reason why I don't feel compelled to second-guess the coroner's decision in this case.

This is basically another 9/11-truth; people are hearing "broken neck bones" without the specifics, and ruling that the expert investigators must be mistaken (or lying) because they've read enough Wikipedia articles and seen enough Law & Order episodes to know that broken neck bones means murder.
 
Checkmite said:
So would I, which is another reason why I don't feel compelled to second-guess the coroner's decision in this case.

This is basically another 9/11-truth; people are hearing "broken neck bones" without the specifics, and ruling that the expert investigators must be mistaken (or lying) because they've read enough Wikipedia articles and seen enough Law & Order episodes to know that broken neck bones means murder.
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As far as I'm aware, there's exactly one person, the medical examiner, who called it suicide, and that's being countered by a pathologist who was there for the autopsy, who was hired by Epstein's lawyers.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics...pstein-suicide-lawyers-vow-investigation.html
“We are not satisfied with the conclusions of the medical examiner,” three of Epstein’s lawyers, Martin G. Weinberg, Reid Weingarten and Michael Miller, said in a statement. “We will have a more complete response in the coming days.” The lawyers vowed to conduct their own investigation into Epstein’s death.
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https://www.apnews.com/afs:Content:6878060213
Lawyers representing Epstein selected Baden to attend the autopsy.

Baden, who served as the city’s chief medical examiner in the late 1970s, made a name for himself testifying in high-profile cases, including for the defense in O.J. Simpson’s 1995 murder trial.
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It really isn't like there is a team of "expert investigators" who are saying it was suicide.

"Expert opinion" is apparently split 50/50.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Jet fuel can't break necks!
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Ha. lol

"Partial hangings don't break multiple neck bones" kinda is why I'm not convinced is was suicide.

But the "It really was suicide" position just seems to be hinging on the WaPo article being incorrect about multiple neck bones being broken. Which, there is a chance the WaPo report about that was wrong somehow.
 
The "It was really suicide" position was determined by the coroner, who was in charge of making the cause of death finding for the death certificate. Internet sleuths, anonymous sources, 85-year-old "celebrity pathologists" on Fox News, none of their opinions is of any import.
 
carlitos said:
The "It was really suicide" position was determined by the coroner, who was in charge of making the cause of death finding for the death certificate. Internet sleuths, anonymous sources, 85-year-old "celebrity pathologists" on Fox News, none of their opinions is of any import.
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The "celebrity pathologists" was present for Epstein's autopsy and was the coroner for years. He had the exact same job in the exact same city as the one who decided to call it suicide.

Going on Fox doesn't somehow make him a non-expert, does it?
 
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kellyb said:
Ha. lol

"Partial hangings don't break multiple neck bones" kinda is why I'm not convinced is was suicide.

But the "It really was suicide" position just seems to be hinging on the WaPo article being incorrect about multiple neck bones being broken. Which, there is a chance the WaPo report about that was wrong somehow.
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Umm, no - it is also supported by the fact that literally nobody had access to Epstein's cell that could've committed the murder.
 
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