Today's Mass Shooting

[Meadmaker]

Then it's time to accept that free speech must be curbed for the good of society.

Not buying it.

Of course, if it actually rises to specific threats or specific incitements to violence, yes, but we already do that. If it's the general, "Immigrants are taking over our culture" kind of b.s., that rhetoric is dumb, but making it illegal starts us down a path that ends in a very bad place.


I suppose I would like to see examples of what sort of rhetoric people think ought to be made illegal in order to curb mass shootings. Or if there is some sort of lesser action short of making it criminal, what would you have in mind.

It's all well and good to say we have to do something about thus and such a thing, but the devil is in the details. What is it that people think really ought to be done? in concrete terms? If we give government broad powers to restrict free speech when they think it is necessary, I'll take bets that they will find it necessary to restrict an awful lot of things. That's what powerful people do when given the authority to do it. That way lies madness, or more accurately, an authoritarian government or a dictatorship.


ETA: And, if possible, I would like to discuss this only in the context of what might be done that could reduce mass shootings. If that can't be done, it really ought to go in a different thread.

 

[arthwollipot]

Not buying it.

As you've pointed out, we already curb free speech. There are some things that it is illegal to say. You can't incite violence. You can't induce panic. People in general, and America in particular, need to get rid of this whole idea that free speech is sacrosanct. Sites like 8chan should be shut down. YouTube should be banning white supremacist content.

It's never going to be completely solved, obviously, but expanding the illegality of certain kinds of speech is going to help a lot to counter stochastic terrorism. There's another thread crossover for you.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Not buying it.

Of course, if it actually rises to specific threats or specific incitements to violence, yes, but we already do that. If it's the general, "Immigrants are taking over our culture" kind of b.s., that rhetoric is dumb, but making it illegal starts us down a path that ends in a very bad place.

Yep incitement is a BS crime and needs to be stricken from the legal books as being against the first amendment.

 

[Meadmaker]

As you've pointed out, we already curb free speech. There are some things that it is illegal to say. You can't incite violence. You can't induce panic. People in general, and America in particular, need to get rid of this whole idea that free speech is sacrosanct. Sites like 8chan should be shut down. YouTube should be banning white supremacist content.

It's never going to be completely solved, obviously, but expanding the illegality of certain kinds of speech is going to help a lot to counter stochastic terrorism. There's another thread crossover for you.

I might be wrong, but I think YouTube already bans white supremacist content.

In my humble opinion, YouTube is a private entity and I would be extremely reluctant to impose any restriction on what they can post on their servers beyond what they already voluntarily restrict themselves. Once you get the government involved in deciding what is and isn't legal to say, a bunch of things become illegal to say.

I guess I would like to see someone cite a specific example of a specific video that YouTube considers acceptable, but that you, or anyone else, thinks the government should step in and make illegal.

And, to yank things back toward the thread topic, what would it accomplish? Last year, the ADL said there were 38 white supremacist killings. Those included 17 by Nick Cruz. They detailed his racist activity in the report, but when he decided to kill a bunch of people, he killed 17 white kids, in an act with no apparent political connection of any sort.

I think the far greater reason for the mass of spree killings in the US is loneliness.

ETA: Combined with easy access to guns.

 

[dann]

I might be wrong, but I think YouTube already bans white supremacist content.

They do! Sometimes more than once:

In June 2019, Vikernes's YouTube channel "Thulean Perspective" was removed from the platform. This coincided with an announcement from YouTube that it would be more aggressive in removing extremist content and hate speech which violated its terms of service. Vikernes said he did not know exactly why his channel was removed. Within hours, he had created a new channel and said he would continue to post content. However, Vikernes‘ new channel was removed soon after.Varg Vikernes: Life after prison (Wikipedia)

They detailed his racist activity in the report, but when he decided to kill a bunch of people, he killed 17 white kids, in an act with no apparent political connection of any sort.

Haters gonna hate. They tend to hate 'N-word lovers' even more than N-words. Take a look at Breivik's victims (BBC News).

I think the far greater reason for the mass of spree killings in the US is loneliness.

It's not a very good way to make friends, and I think they know that. If they have anything like that in mind it's probably a narcissistic wish for admirers, to impress the other haters in their online communities.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

As you've pointed out, we already curb free speech. There are some things that it is illegal to say. You can't incite violence. You can't induce panic. People in general, and America in particular, need to get rid of this whole idea that free speech is sacrosanct. Sites like 8chan should be shut down. YouTube should be banning white supremacist content.

It's never going to be completely solved, obviously, but expanding the illegality of certain kinds of speech is going to help a lot to counter stochastic terrorism. There's another thread crossover for you.

We're missing a critical requirement for that not to go terribly, terribly wrong.

Given the political immaturity of America overall, I see a system that will go to extraordinary lengths to put a stop to the bigotry and intolerance against protestant evangelical Christianity. Gun owners, also gun owners. Oh, and "patriots" because that one always just sells itself (hump a flag or two).

 

[catsmate]

Interesting editorial in The Lancet.

In just over a week, a spate of mass shootings devastated the USA: in Gilroy, CA, on July 28, 2019, three people were killed and 12 injured at a festival; in El Paso, TX, on Aug 3, 22 were killed and 24 injured at a shopping centre; and in downtown Dayton, OH, on Aug 4, another nine were killed and 27 were injured. It has left the country aghast, overwhelmed, and looking for answers to whether and how these killings can be prevented. Over 250 separate mass shootings have occurred in 2019. Although rare in the scope of gun violence, the seemingly unpredictable nature of these tragic events has begun to chisel away at the public's reluctance toward gun reform. The refrain of anguished citizens to an inert government has become: “Do something!” But a resolution to stop mass shootings and the catastrophic cycle of gun violence cannot occur without a deep reckoning with underlying cultural forces.

The epicentre of nearly every mass shooting in the USA is a man. In the forensic unpacking, the shared characteristics of shooters—misogyny, alienation, and hate—emerge. Angry and socially disengaged, he finds solace in racist or extremist ideologies online. Rejected by females, he identifies as an involuntary celibate or “incel”, he demeans women and blames minorities, threatening violence. At some unknown point of personal crisis, he takes aim at infamy by destroying as many lives as he can in a moment. The staggering lopsidedness of male perpetrators in mass shootings behooves investigating the social mechanisms and influences that may interact with maladaptive beliefs, reinforce hegemonic masculinity, or make seductive the annihilation of oneself and others.

As the frequency of mass shootings has escalated and held stable, in efforts to understand the motivations behind them, the lay public and politicians have perhaps too quickly labelled mental illness as a catch-all precipitant. In August, 2019, the National Council for Behavioral Health released a report, “Mass violence in America: causes, impacts, and solutions”, examining the relationship between mental illness and mass shootings. As a framework, the report suggests that a community-wide problem requires community-wide engagement and involvement to find points for intervention before violence occurs. The report concludes that although psychological and social functioning aspects might figure modestly in the constellation of factors that spur mass violence, to suggest that a diagnosable psychiatric illness is a “necessary or sufficient” risk factor is a great and damaging oversimplification, increasing stigma, promoting less effective policy strategies targeting a subset of individuals than more inclusive gun-control laws, and diverting attention from other mediating factors.

In the present sociopolitical context where the nation has more seriously begun to consider the effects of racism and sexism, shifting the dialogue away from the systemic issues that give rise to mass shootings is by design. Gun-related deaths in the USA (nearly 40 000 in 2017) carry a massive economic toll (US$229 billion, including more than $9 billion for medical and emergency care) and mass shootings contribute disproportionately to financial and social burdens. Despite these costs, Republicans and the National Rifle Association (NRA) continue to propound unfettered access to firearms as an expression of liberty, stymieing legislation prohibiting high-capacity firearms, challenging universal background checks, and opposing extreme protection orders temporarily removing firearms from those deemed at risk. The far right and the Trump administration have fomented and normalised white nationalist sentiment and entitlement with anti-immigrant rhetoric, which is amplified by conservative media and then consumed by the disenfranchised. The First Amendment (protecting free speech) and the Second Amendment (the right to bear arms) have become weaponised and mass shootings are one of the byproducts.

The NRA has exhorted that doctors in favour of gun control should “stay in their lane”, prompting medical and public health professionals who contend with its aftermath to assert that gun violence cannot be the exclusive domain of politics. On Aug 7, 2019, the Annals of Internal Medicine published a call to action to underscore that injuries and deaths by firearms, including mass shootings, must be confronted with a public health approach, to “address culture, firearm safety, and reasonable regulation”. The corollary of this charge is to acknowledge that despite practical recommendations to increase research, to improve screening and interventions for intimate partner violence and suicide, and to promote sensible access to firearms, the culture of American gun violence is bound to a hateful and dangerous undergirding of discrimination. Doing something about mass shootings will take a critical mass intent on change.

 

[dann]

CNN: Police may have thwarted 3 shootings in 5 days

 

[jimbob]

I don't know if we've found any direct evidence of a single spree killer attacking a group of people, but we do know groups attacked each other, and left whole families or small tribes dead.

Even without guns, people who want to kill other people find ways to do it, and have done so for 10,000 years or longer.

Some bedtime reading:

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/10-000-year-old-mass-murder-found-in-kenya-1.5393029

https://gizmodo.com/5-000-year-old-grave-reveals-mass-murder-of-a-bronze-ag-1834730007
A very interesting take on the subject: https://dodoma.com/2019/06/20/did-p...reate-conservatives-liberals-and-homosexuals/

I agree with most of this, but the last link is pretty flaky - it has some iffy data (unlike the narrative suggested, many surveys say that women are more likely to have homosexual experiences than men).

It doesn't explain how this bottleneck arose so late in the day - after most major landmasses had already been colonised.

This SMBC cartoon seems pertinent

http://smbc-comics.com/comic/gartok


It might make some speculative fiction, but it really has little beyond a single observation that the author has shoehorned to explain some aspects of modern life with a just so story. And conveniently ignoring evidence that doesn't fit.

 

[mgidm86]

Shouldn't there have been another shooting by now? What's the hold up?

 

[PhantomWolf]

Shouldn't there have been another shooting by now? What's the hold up?

The Police stopped them, 3 of them.

 

[angrysoba]

Shouldn't there have been another shooting by now? What's the hold up?

Don’t worry. It won’t be long. Either there is a mass shooting or there is going to be a mass shooting.

 

[jimbob]

Shouldn't there have been another shooting by now? What's the hold up?

Not newsworthy enough - but that's the only reason:

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting

|Incident Date |State |City Or County |Address |# Killed |# Injured |Operations |
|August 23, 2019 |Missouri |Saint Louis |918 Union |1 |3 |View Incident |
|August 23, 2019 |Texas |Houston |4900 block of Southwind St |3 |2 |View Incident |
|August 22, 2019 |South Carolina |Columbia |851 Bush River Rd |2 |2 |View Incident |
|August 22, 2019 |California |Los Angeles |300 block of West Fifth St |0 |4 |View Incident |
|August 20, 2019 |Georgia |Atlanta |111 James P Brawley Dr SW |0 |4 |View Incident |
|August 18, 2019 |Missouri |Kansas City |770 W 47th St |0 |4 |View Incident |
|August 17, 2019 |Texas |Houston |12500 block of Mylla St |0 |6 |View Incident |
|August 15, 2019 |Pennsylvania |Philadelphia |5800 block of N 15th St |0 |5 |View Incident |
|August 15, 2019 |Alabama |Montgomery |847 N University Dr |2 |3 |View Incident |
|August 14, 2019 |Pennsylvania |Philadelphia |3716 N 15th St |0 |6 |View Incident |
|August 13, 2019 |Washington |Tacoma |E 38th St and E Roosevelt Ave |2 |3 |View Incident |
|August 12, 2019 |Mississippi |Greenwood |200 Young St |0 |4 |View Incident |
|August 11, 2019 |Illinois |Chicago |3500 block of W Lake St |0 |6 |View Incident |
|August 10, 2019 |Virginia |Richmond |6346 Midlothian Turnpike |0 |4 |View Incident |
|August 10, 2019 |California |San Francisco |1100 Fillmore St |0 |4 |View Incident |
|August 9, 2019 |Illinois |Chicago |7300 block of S Artesian Ave |0 |4 |View Incident |
|August 7, 2019 |Missouri |Saint Louis |4900 block of Plover Ave |2 |2 |View Incident |
|August 5, 2019 |New York |Brooklyn |216 Buffalo Ave |0 |4 |View Incident |
|August 4, 2019 |Illinois |Chicago |1800 S Kildare Ave |1 |7 |View Incident |
|August 4, 2019 |Tennessee |Memphis |443 E Shelby Dr |1 |3 |View Incident |
|August 4, 2019 |Ohio |Dayton |419 E 5th St |10 |17 |View Incident |
|August 4, 2019 |Illinois |Chicago |2900 block of W Roosevelt Rd |0 |7 |View Incident |
|August 3, 2019 |Texas |El Paso |7101 Gateway Blvd |22 |24 |View Incident |
|August 2, 2019 |Virginia |Suffolk |200 block of N Broad St |2 |3 |View Incident |

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Then it's time to accept that free speech must be curbed for the good of society.

lol no

You and I don't get to choose what someone else gets to say.

Most importantly, because if you or I get to choose what someone else gets to say, then someday when the tables are turned, someone else will get to choose what you or I get to say.

So no.

Not just no, hell no.

Not just hell no, **** no.

 

[mgidm86]

The Police stopped them, 3 of them.

Ya but that probably happens a lot, we just don't hear about most.

 

[mgidm86]

Not newsworthy enough - but that's the only reason:

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting

|Incident Date |State |City Or County |Address |# Killed |# Injured |Operations |
|August 23, 2019 |Missouri |Saint Louis |918 Union |1 |3 |View Incident |
|August 23, 2019 |Texas |Houston |4900 block of Southwind St |3 |2 |View Incident |
|August 22, 2019 |South Carolina |Columbia |851 Bush River Rd |2 |2 |View Incident |
|August 22, 2019 |California |Los Angeles |300 block of West Fifth St |0 |4 |View Incident |
|August 20, 2019 |Georgia |Atlanta |111 James P Brawley Dr SW |0 |4 |View Incident |
|August 18, 2019 |Missouri |Kansas City |770 W 47th St |0 |4 |View Incident |
|August 17, 2019 |Texas |Houston |12500 block of Mylla St |0 |6 |View Incident |
|August 15, 2019 |Pennsylvania |Philadelphia |5800 block of N 15th St |0 |5 |View Incident |
|August 15, 2019 |Alabama |Montgomery |847 N University Dr |2 |3 |View Incident |
|August 14, 2019 |Pennsylvania |Philadelphia |3716 N 15th St |0 |6 |View Incident |
|August 13, 2019 |Washington |Tacoma |E 38th St and E Roosevelt Ave |2 |3 |View Incident |
|August 12, 2019 |Mississippi |Greenwood |200 Young St |0 |4 |View Incident |
|August 11, 2019 |Illinois |Chicago |3500 block of W Lake St |0 |6 |View Incident |
|August 10, 2019 |Virginia |Richmond |6346 Midlothian Turnpike |0 |4 |View Incident |
|August 10, 2019 |California |San Francisco |1100 Fillmore St |0 |4 |View Incident |
|August 9, 2019 |Illinois |Chicago |7300 block of S Artesian Ave |0 |4 |View Incident |
|August 7, 2019 |Missouri |Saint Louis |4900 block of Plover Ave |2 |2 |View Incident |
|August 5, 2019 |New York |Brooklyn |216 Buffalo Ave |0 |4 |View Incident |
|August 4, 2019 |Illinois |Chicago |1800 S Kildare Ave |1 |7 |View Incident |
|August 4, 2019 |Tennessee |Memphis |443 E Shelby Dr |1 |3 |View Incident |
|August 4, 2019 |Ohio |Dayton |419 E 5th St |10 |17 |View Incident |
|August 4, 2019 |Illinois |Chicago |2900 block of W Roosevelt Rd |0 |7 |View Incident |
|August 3, 2019 |Texas |El Paso |7101 Gateway Blvd |22 |24 |View Incident |
|August 2, 2019 |Virginia |Suffolk |200 block of N Broad St |2 |3 |View Incident |

Oh we are now counting gang shootings as mass shootings. Good. Last week it was reported that white people are doing all the mass shootings.

And bullcrap that the highlited is the only reason.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/...e-wounded-garfield-park-drive-by-gun-violence

At least six people, including five women, were wounded in a shooting Sunday in Garfield Park on the West Side.

I clicked on 5 shootings in that list and every one of them is gang related. But nope, not worthy of reporting on CNN or the ISF for some reason.

It isn't newsworthy when it happens every day.

 

[arthwollipot]

lol no

You and I don't get to choose what someone else gets to say.

Most importantly, because if you or I get to choose what someone else gets to say, then someday when the tables are turned, someone else will get to choose what you or I get to say.

So no.

Not just no, hell no.

Not just hell no, **** no.

"Free" speech is already restricted. Do you think it should be legal for me to publicly call for people to murder the President?

 

[mgidm86]

"Free" speech is already restricted. Do you think it should be legal for me to publicly call for people to murder the President?

I might.

"If arthwollipot jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge would you do it too?"

 

[ponderingturtle]

lol no

You and I don't get to choose what someone else gets to say.

Most importantly, because if you or I get to choose what someone else gets to say, then someday when the tables are turned, someone else will get to choose what you or I get to say.

So no.

Not just no, hell no.

Not just hell no, **** no.

I get it threats and incitement need to be decriminalized as the free speech that they are.

 

[plague311]

lol no

You and I don't get to choose what someone else gets to say.

Most importantly, because if you or I get to choose what someone else gets to say, then someday when the tables are turned, someone else will get to choose what you or I get to say.

So no.

Not just no, hell no.

Not just hell no, **** no.

You should listen to Ken White's Make No Law: The First Amendment Podcast because there are a ton of times where the SCOTUS has decided what someone else gets to say. Speech limitations are plenty and backed up by years of case law.