Mueller Investigation pt 6

[theprestige]

Fair enough. Carry on!

 

[johnny karate]

I suspect that RedBaronFarms is a possibility?

Theprestige is generally thoughtful if partisan.

Agreed.

I'm glad there's still at least two.

 

[Elvis666]

Agreed.

I'm glad there's still at least two.

It's hard to participate here and also express a conservative view. It is automatically equated with a red hat with orange skin. I would suspect I am not the only lurker who has stopped commenting on anything remotely connected to politics.To many members here, a conservative Democrat is the equivalent of a snipe.

 

[plague311]

It's hard to participate here and also express a conservative view. It is automatically equated with a red hat with orange skin. I would suspect I am not the only lurker who has stopped commenting on anything remotely connected to politics.To many members here, a conservative Democrat is the equivalent of a snipe.

I don't understand what a conservative democrat is? I'm not being *******-ish, I've just never heard of that. If you're fiscally conservative but socially democrat I don't think there would be any issues. Most of the time when I see people get confronted is when they defend the indefensible. If the stuff Trump does is considered conservative, and you support it, then it should be a snipe. He does, acts, and treats people ******. He's just a **** person.

 

[The Shrike]

It's hard to participate here and also express a conservative view.

Huh? Present a view, defend it with evidence. This is critical thinking 101.

If you can't defend it then you probably shouldn't hold it, or at least you should acknowledge that your reasons for holding the view are irrational.

If you have well-supported conservative views, PLEASE share them here. It will help me figure out what conservative means these days.

 

[johnny karate]

It's hard to participate here and also express a conservative view. It is automatically equated with a red hat with orange skin. I would suspect I am not the only lurker who has stopped commenting on anything remotely connected to politics.To many members here, a conservative Democrat is the equivalent of a snipe.

Sorry, but this just reads to me like more of the Conservative Persecution Complex that is so prevalent around here.

There's nothing wrong with being a conservative. But as plague311 stated, if you're a conservative who defends repugnant behavior and pushes outlandish conspiracy theories, you'll be called out on it.

And of course the irony is that Trump isn't even really a conservative.

In the Trump Era, we've seen a lot of principles that were supposed to be the underpinning of conservative ideology - fiscal responsibility, family values, respect for the military, etc. - get completely abandoned by so-called conservatives apparently more interested in lashing out at liberals than adhering to those principles.

 

[jimbob]

Serious question: Do we have any conservative posters left here who don’t peddle conspiracy theories?

I can think of one, who is disgusted by Trump and, now (IIRC) has posted that he's left the Republican party.

Fast Eddie B.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

We probably don't agree on much but I think this is a valid point. Opponents need fresh language and fresh arguments to get their point across. They need to appeal to the values of decent conservatives. There are some. That doesn't mean letting Trump of the hook for genuine racism but the word, however accurate, is overused IMO.

Why is that particular word, racist, overused when it comes to Trump. He displays his racism every single day.

Or do you mean we shouldn't call Trump supporters racist by association?

There are increasing incidents of racist, transphobic and homophobic acts of violence being reported. Yes we can blame Trump.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I took the comment much differently, I took it to mean that liberals accuse people of being racist too much....

Since most racists deny they are racist, it makes it look like the accusation is being over-used.

Where do you put people who hate black and brown immigrants on the racist scale?

 

[Minoosh]

The term "socialist" has truly lost all meaning.

It's simply become a pejorative term.

And as a pejorative I don't think it's terribly successful. It may be a boogeyman to some "conservatives" (who are actually radicals) but I'm betting people understand that so-called socialism can work with capitalism; it's not all or nothing.

I'm not using socialism in a strict sense; just the idea that we collectively pay for roads, police, fire instead of all having our own roads and private police.

 

[Minoosh]

Why is that particular word, racist, overused when it comes to Trump. He displays his racism every single day.

Or do you mean we shouldn't call Trump supporters racist by association?

There are increasing incidents of racist, transphobic and homophobic acts of violence being reported. Yes we can blame Trump.

I'd use the word "bigotry" a little more as IMO all racism is bigotry but not all bigotry is racism.

Many of his supporters are working with a different meaning of racism. People who hate ******* aren't the same as people who feel vaguely uneasy about demographic change. The former really are racists. The latter, maybe they are too, but I don't think Trump's whole 40 percent are the same degree of bigoted across the board. I'm not sure yet whether it's a good idea to tar all Trump voters with the same brush. Maybe it is. I'm not sure.

 

[Minoosh]

Where do you put people who hate black and brown immigrants on the racist scale?

They always have the out of saying, "I'm for immigration, just not ILLEGAL immigration."

I tend to think illegal immigrants are the ones with the most enterprise and gumption, but that sentiment is not universally shared.

 

[theprestige]

They always have the out of saying, "I'm for immigration, just not ILLEGAL immigration."

I tend to think illegal immigrants are the ones with the most enterprise and gumption, but that sentiment is not universally shared.

It's always seemed to me that making a living from crime was actually hard work. Harder even than playing it straight.

But this idea that illegal immigrants have the most enterprise and gumption doesn't seem to go anywhere useful, or even rational. It's not like you're going to argue that we should invert the current border controls, rejecting all the legal applicants and legalizing all the illegal ones.

Are you?

 

[Paul2]

Since most racists deny they are racist, it makes it look like the accusation is being over-used.

Where do you put people who hate black and brown immigrants on the racist scale?

Squarely right on the racist part of the scale.

 

[eeyore1954]

Since most racists deny they are racist, it makes it look like the accusation is being over-used.

Where do you put people who hate black and brown immigrants on the racist scale?

The problem is many people assume people who are against illegal immigration are automatically racist. If someone hates black and brown people immigrant or not because they are black and brown they are racist.

I know many people who are against illegal immigration but like black and brown people as much as any other color(Heaven forbid). Some of them are what you would refer to as black and brown people.

 

[Aridas]

It's hard to participate here and also express a conservative view. It is automatically equated with a red hat with orange skin. I would suspect I am not the only lurker who has stopped commenting on anything remotely connected to politics.To many members here, a conservative Democrat is the equivalent of a snipe.

Mmm. If you're unhappy about the poor feelings towards the "conservative" part of that, you should blame the long and storied tradition of "conservative values" being little more than a nice facade that propagandists and their benefactors have used selectively to shield and support self-interest and horrors and which are easy to be fooled by when one isn't well-informed on the intricacies actually in play. Further blame Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, and various other "conservative" propaganda spewers (as well as the people making them happen) for having appropriated and popularized the term to mean something wildly different than what you likely consider it to be.

Why is that particular word, racist, overused when it comes to Trump. He displays his racism every single day.

Or do you mean we shouldn't call Trump supporters racist by association?

There are increasing incidents of racist, transphobic and homophobic acts of violence being reported. Yes we can blame Trump.

Hmm? Racist is overused in general, though frequently not when it comes to describing Trump and those like him. Trump, in particular, is serving as an enabler and one who encourages such, though, which is the truly problematic part of it.

Feel free to skip this paragraph of me pointing out the obvious to give bit of context to the first part of that, though, if you feel like it. To a fair degree, it's not wrong to say that it's part of human nature to jump to conclusions, after all. Some of those conclusions are simply wrong, with increasing frequency when something is a real and highly visible problem. It's also part of human nature to not desire to be considered something "bad," and great lengths will be taken to avoid both being labelled as such and acknowledging such.

Since most racists deny they are racist, it makes it look like the accusation is being over-used.

That's part of it, yes. That also leads to it being underused in a number of situations, incidentally.

Anyways, back to Mueller stuff! Because that's what the thread's main point is!

Republicans frequently followed Sean Hannity's (frequently false) lines of argument in the hearing.

 

[Minoosh]

It's always seemed to me that making a living from crime was actually hard work. Harder even than playing it straight.

But this idea that illegal immigrants have the most enterprise and gumption doesn't seem to go anywhere useful, or even rational. It's not like you're going to argue that we should invert the current border controls, rejecting all the legal applicants and legalizing all the illegal ones.

Are you?

Not all of them, no.

I very much favored McCain-Kennedy-Bush type legislation in 2005-2007 and was heartbroken when it failed.

The lack of any comprehensive measure means we just keep going on with a system that sucks across the board. DACA folks still in limbo, when we need more working young people. Trump fetishizes a wall but in the meantime the U.S. is utterly incapable of filling 5,000 already authorized Border Patrol openings. Harmless, able-bodied people languishing in detention for $700 a day would probably be grateful for farmwork or in other areas with labor shortages. (One never knows how loyalty is born.) How useful or rational is any of that?

I favor use of e-Verify (though many Republicans don't) and as an extension would support a tamper-resistant biometric ID, which also seems to drive Republicans nuts.

America is a union, illegal immigrants are its scabs. That's where a lot of hostility comes from.

ETA: And these private for-profit detention centers meet my definition of human trafficking.

 

[johnny karate]

The problem is many people assume people who are against illegal immigration are automatically racist. If someone hates black and brown people immigrant or not because they are black and brown they are racist.

I know many people who are against illegal immigration but like black and brown people as much as any other color(Heaven forbid). Some of them are what you would refer to as black and brown people.

Do these falsely accused haters of illegal immigration direct an equal share of their ire at the businesses who hire illegals?

 

[a_unique_person]

Mueller was exposed as being "best friends" with Comey, was he? Someone he described as a "colleague" and stated that he went 6 months without having any communication whatsoever with him?

In the meantime, Trump openly said that he wanted to become "best friends" with Vladimir Putin, and that he "fell in love" with Kim Jong Un.

I wonder if he grabbed Kim by the pussy?

 

[Minoosh]

Lately it seems like a lot of threads are just morphing into something completely different.

So, Mueller. I was satisfied with his appearance. I find him to be a credible and fair investigator. It's great to know that counterintelligence agents are not playing dead for Russia. Trump continues to deny Russia's utterly obvious manipulation of U.S. politics. Of course he really knows it's happening and condones it. Happily GOP senators are not as amused.

I think it's really not looking good that so many Trump confederates are ignoring subpoenas. They don't have to reveal anything privileged. To me it looks like they're scared.