What I dislike about modern atheism

[8enotto]

+ 1

A source of wonder to me, are those who show no concern about other peoples religion, impacting their own lives. The impact may be subtle in some cases and although in others quite significant, the ignorance of those effected, stops them from feeling the outrage, they should feel.

Regrettably it is understandable I suppose, because so many just look at how they are directly effected. The plight of women wanting abortions, LGBT folk wanting equal rights, and so on, are just minority groups, and need not concern the bulk of us.

This is me, until their beliefs get in my way. Then most times I politely remove the ' offending ' material the first time. Explain its not my interests. After that I may not be so polite again.

But I cannot equate dodging woo to rights being stripped away or special rights being demanded. Seperation of church and state is supposed to keep dogma out of the law books.

I live in a community of mostly catholic with a thousand tiny sects of ultra religious types and it is not my issue how they worship or what. If that gets in the way of doing business to hell with them, I will look elsewhere. It has happened too. But it is noted that most JW types with businesses take anyone's money in exchange for goods. They may say they are just hanging time here for what comes, but they ain't going to drive ****** cars or eat only beans and rice meanwhile.

No sir, most live pretty well.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

I would add that even the same groups who are all enlightened in whatever western country you live in, can quite easily revert to being dicks in times and places where it looks like they can. A trivial example are the Catholics, who may be all chill and all live-and-let-live in the USA or western Europe, but will cheerfully tie you up and put you through an exorcism or several even in a modern country like Mexico for as little as not being liked by an ultra-religious community you happen to live in. E.g., for being a woman who got an abortion, or even for being the wrong kind of Xian. Sure, they can't set you on fire any more, but they're more than happy to bully you around otherwise when they can get away with it. And it gets worse in, say, Africa.

 

[acbytesla]

+ 1

A source of wonder to me, are those who show no concern about other peoples religion, impacting their own lives. The impact may be subtle in some cases and although in others quite significant, the ignorance of those effected, stops them from feeling the outrage, they should feel.

Regrettably it is understandable I suppose, because so many just look at how they are directly effected. The plight of women wanting abortions, LGBT folk wanting equal rights, and so on, are just minority groups, and need not concern the bulk of us.

Not to mention the effect their beliefs have on science and education. I give you stem cell research, evolution vs not very intelligent design. I'd also argue it has had a direct effect on health care, social security and spending on things that benefit the middle class and poor since the powerful use it as a wedge issue to divide and inevitably influence many to vote against their own interests

 

[Garrison]

I have to sat the thing that makes me feel more belligerent as an atheist is going to the local shopping mall and running across yet another group of Jehovah's Witnesses with their little stand full of pamphlets, all to eager to explain why their magic sky fairy is the real one to any luckless passerby. If people want to believe in god that's fine, its when they insist that the rest of us have to take their beliefs seriously and grant them special status that I take issue.

 

[Thor 2]

Not to mention the effect their beliefs have on science and education. I give you stem cell research, evolution vs not very intelligent design. I'd also argue it has had a direct effect on health care, social security and spending on things that benefit the middle class and poor since the powerful use it as a wedge issue to divide and inevitably influence many to vote against their own interests

Yes all this too. I think we could come up with a most impressive list if we were to compile one about the detrimental effects of religion.

Perhaps my exposure to some of these, albeit indirectly, has been greater than that of most, so my tolerance of religion minuscule. Others, some on this forum, seem to claim some kudos for being accepting of the religious, and somehow conflating this with tolerance of religious belief.

I had a friend in my early twenties who came out as gay and came onto me. I rejected his advances but we remained friends. Some few years later he threw himself under a train.* Oh sure I know, gays committing suicide is not uncommon, but when it is someone you know ....

I have witnessed a number of other, close at hand, consequences of religious belief. Tragic, is the word that comes to mind.


* Religiously driven, homophobic father.

 

[arthwollipot]

I have to sat the thing that makes me feel more belligerent as an atheist is going to the local shopping mall and running across yet another group of Jehovah's Witnesses with their little stand full of pamphlets, all to eager to explain why their magic sky fairy is the real one to any luckless passerby. If people want to believe in god that's fine, its when they insist that the rest of us have to take their beliefs seriously and grant them special status that I take issue.

To me, this is about the most inoffensive method of evangelism that I can think of. They sit there, with their little stand of pamphlets, waiting for people to approach them. They aren't putting it in your face - at worst they might be putting it in your path, but they are easily ignorable.

Quite unlike the charity muggers who approach random strangers on the street with big creepy smiles and cheery greetings. A nightmare for an introvert with social anxiety who just wants to be left alone.

 

[acbytesla]

Yes all this too. I think we could come up with a most impressive list if we were to compile one about the detrimental effects of religion.

Perhaps my exposure to some of these, albeit indirectly, has been greater than that of most, so my tolerance of religion minuscule. Others, some on this forum, seem to claim some kudos for being accepting of the religious, and somehow conflating this with tolerance of religious belief.

I had a friend in my early twenties who came out as gay and came onto me. I rejected his advances but we remained friends. Some few years later he threw himself under a train.* Oh sure I know, gays committing suicide is not uncommon, but when it is someone you know ....

I have witnessed a number of other, close at hand, consequences of religious belief. Tragic, is the word that comes to mind.


* Religiously driven, homophobic father.

I have friends that were disowned by their religious families because they were gay or didn't believe. My old boss who I loved like a brother sent his adopted son to gay conversion therapy. I watched a man treat his son like **** because of his religion.

We had a falling out because of it.

 

[Roboramma]

Really? I think Jordan Petersen is a tool. Most atheists I know mock that guy.

His conversations with Sam Harris really showed the bankruptcy of his ideas regarding religion.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

I haven't watched those. I looked at some of his psychology lectures, up to the point where he was making up history to make the case that Hitler only turned national socialist by picking the clues of what the audience wanted to hear. Which contradicts the actual history, such as what he wrote about Jews BEFORE even WW1 was over. He was basically just making whatever stuff up he needs to make his case. I guess, in the fine tradition started by Freud. And frankly, if his psychology is based on just fiction -- including basically whole concepts being illustrated only by Disney cartoons -- then I'm not very interested.

 

[Roboramma]

I haven't watched those. I looked at some of his psychology lectures, up to the point where he was making up history to make the case that Hitler only turned national socialist by picking the clues of what the audience wanted to hear. Which contradicts the actual history, such as what he wrote about Jews BEFORE even WW1 was over. He was basically just making whatever stuff up he needs to make his case. I guess, in the fine tradition started by Freud. And frankly, if his psychology is based on just fiction -- including basically whole concepts being illustrated only by Disney cartoons -- then I'm not very interested.

I haven't watched those, but yeah that sounds pretty ridiculous.

 

[David Mo]

Really? I think Jordan Petersen is a tool. Most atheists I know mock that guy.

It is difficult to argue about a guy that does not know or does not want to define the fundamental concepts of his doctrine. From what I have seen on the Internet it seems to me to be a kind of Elmer Gantry of the New Neoliberal Spirituality. I would have to read more about it, but it doesn't seduce me in the least. Sounds to me like a very old sermon was said as if it was the last word of the post-post-whatever.

Maybe it's so deep that I haven't get it. I can't go down 4m without air tanks.

NOTE: Elmer Gantry is the main character of a great film by Richard Brooks with the same name, based on a not so great novel by Sinclair Lewis. I recommend both to everybody.

 

[acbytesla]

It is difficult to argue about a guy that does not know or does not want to define the fundamental concepts of his doctrine. From what I have seen on the Internet it seems to me to be a kind of Elmer Gantry of the New Neoliberal Spirituality. I would have to read more about it, but it doesn't seduce me in the least. Sounds to me like a very old sermon was said as if it was the last word of the post-post-whatever.

Maybe it's so deep that I haven't get it. I can't go down 4m without air tanks.

NOTE: Elmer Gantry is the main character of a great film by Richard Brooks with the same name, based on a not so great novel by Sinclair Lewis. I recommend both to everybody.

I wouldn't call him "neo-liberal". Just another brand of nonsense peddler. The old, if you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with bull **** kind of guy. And yes Elmer Gantry is a great movie. Probably Burt Lancaster's best role.

 

[Mycroft]

Yeah, teenagers often do things for irrational reasons. So do adults.

I don't think you can fix that.

 

[ArchSas]

I wouldn't call him "neo-liberal". Just another brand of nonsense peddler. The old, if you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with bull **** kind of guy. And yes Elmer Gantry is a great movie. Probably Burt Lancaster's best role.

I've seen him referred to as "the Deepak Chopra of incels" a few times, and find it fairly accurate.

 

[acbytesla]

I've seen him referred to as "the Deepak Chopra of incels" a few times, and find it fairly accurate.

Don't get me started on that charlatan His mis-use of quantum physics terms is beyond absurd. He doesn't understand it at all. I grant you that the great Richard Feynman said that if you think you understand quantum physics you don't understand quantum physics.

But Chopra weaves his ignorance of the subject innto the nonsensical swill that he peddles. I can't remember if it was Sam Harris, or Dawkins or Brian Cox where he had a cosmic meltdown over their reference of his pablum as woo.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

I watched a man treat his son like **** because of his religion.

We had a falling out because of it.

Are you sure that's the real reason?

Let us not forget - God doesn't hate gays (how can He when He doesn't exist?) - People do. They don't do stuff because of their religion, their religion has stuff in it because because that's what they want in it.

You think people deny Global Warming because the Bible says its not happening? (It doesn't). Which religion says that selfishness, greed, lack of empathy and xenophobia are desirable qualities? Not Christianity, but that doesn't stop them pretending it does.

Homophobia wouldn't go away if there wasn't a passage in the Bible that could be interpreted as God hates gays. People would just find some other way to justify it.

 

[acbytesla]

Are you sure that's the real reason?

Let us not forget - God doesn't hate gays (how can He when He doesn't exist?) - People do. They don't do stuff because of their religion, their religion has stuff in it because because that's what they want in it.

You think people deny Global Warming because the Bible says its not happening? (It doesn't). Which religion says that selfishness, greed, lack of empathy and xenophobia are desirable qualities? Not Christianity, but that doesn't stop them pretending it does.

Homophobia wouldn't go away if there wasn't a passage in the Bible that could be interpreted as God hates gays. People would just find some other way to justify it.

The Bible says homosexuality is an abomination and written God's law says that if a man lay with another man they are to be stoned. So I guess God loves gays.

Keep in mind though that is the same penalty for eating shellfish and gathering firewood on the Sabbath.

As for my boss/friend sending his son to his church's homosexual conversion therapy had nothing to do with his religion.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Are you sure that's the real reason?

Let us not forget - God doesn't hate gays (how can He when He doesn't exist?) - People do. They don't do stuff because of their religion, their religion has stuff in it because because that's what they want in it.

You think people deny Global Warming because the Bible says its not happening? (It doesn't). Which religion says that selfishness, greed, lack of empathy and xenophobia are desirable qualities? Not Christianity, but that doesn't stop them pretending it does.

Homophobia wouldn't go away if there wasn't a passage in the Bible that could be interpreted as God hates gays. People would just find some other way to justify it.

To some extent yes, and to some extent no.

I didn't actually get a degree in anthropology, so I'm not really an authority on the subject, but I would like to draw attention to the concepts of culture and inculturation. The latter being how you learn to fit into and function in a particular culture.

Basically if the culture you grew up in says that only horrible people eat their buttered bread with the butter side up, then you learn to properly eat yours with the butter side down. And to look down upon, possibly even roll your eyes at, any of the losers who eat theirs with the buttered side up.

And things can be really that arbitrary. If you pulled your shorts down at the Olympics nowadays and ran the sprint with your willy flopping around in the wind, it would be a horrible faux pas. Meanwhile in ancient Greece after a certain point in time, the exact opposite would be true. It would be a horrible faux pas if you ran the race any other way than naked.

Basically it's a fancy way of saying that you learn the traditions from the society you grew up in.

And I will say that you are right that homophobia a cultural thing than rather than 'because God said so.'

HOWEVER, the problem is that religion is also a part of culture. And that the influence goes both ways.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

The Bible says homosexuality is an abomination and written God's law says that if a man lay with another man they are to be stoned.

I never said it didn't. But we all know who put that bit in there, and it wasn't God.

Keep in mind though that is the same penalty for eating shellfish and gathering firewood on the Sabbath.

So your boss has the same attitude towards eating shellfish and gathering firewood on Saturday Sunday? And wearing clothes with different fabrics, and planting two kinds of seed, and...

No? Thought not.

As for my boss/friend sending his son to his church's homosexual conversion therapy had nothing to do with his religion.

You have it backwards. People hate gays, and they 'validate' that hatred by putting/keeping it in their religion. They could easily ignore any parts of the Bible they don't agree with - and they do! The fact that they make a big deal about gays and not the other stuff proves that they want to hate gays. So religion isn't the cause of their moral values, it's the result.

 

[Cheetah]

Culture and religion (and racism and homophobia etc.) are the products of human drives and emotions. Human drives are the drivers that shape them.
You would have to change human nature to get rid of racism and homophobia.

What is also true though is that in a culture that condones one of these behaviors, as opposed to one that condemns it, there will be a larger subset of the population exhibiting such behaviour.