The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 29

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This is hilarious. Have you ever thought of going into law? You could put the world to rights. Offer your services to Italy who must be crying out for someone of your capability.

1) The CC and money charges were dropped, not adjudicated.

2) The Marasca Court went beyond its remit in definitively acquitting.

3) The ECHR said Knox was not hit.

4) Knox did not apply to the ECHR before exhausting all legal avenues therefore her application will not be accepted.

5) Marasca did not acquit "for not having committed the crime"; it was a clerical error.

6. "Nowhere in Art 530,2 do the words 'did not commit the act' appear."

All the above you have claimed and all are false. I don't think you should be chiding someone else for the knowledge of Italian law.
 
If that was true, why did you claim that there was no such thing as tertiary transfer in DNA forensics?

What happens one in a thousand times in a sterile tightly controlled laboratory experiment by researchers influenced by a 'halo effect' (setting out to prove their own hypotheses for the benefit of the defence lawyers who hire them) simply becomes meanngless in a murder scene.

Criminal courts are crude and basic all it needs is beyond reasonable doubt. They don't give a toss what specious theory some clever dick defence researcher spouts.
 
Then why don't you ask your darlings what they were doing in the cottage when 'the young Meredith Kercher was murdered'?


Did you even bother to read what Bill wrote? It appears that you did not.


Oh and to whose "darlings" are you referring? If you mean Knox and Sollecito, then I suggest that the only people to whom these two are "darlings" are their families and perhaps very close personal friends. But I'm pretty sure that descriptor doesn't apply to Bill, or indeed to anyone else writing in this thread.

Maybe you're confusing a) a belief, based on reasoned analysis of the whole of the evidence, that Knox and Sollecito almost certainly had nothing whatsoever to do with this murder (which was almost certainly committed by Guede acting alone), and argument in support of that belief, with b) some sort of heartfelt need to defend Knox and/or Sollecito against any and all odds.

But here's a hint for future reference: everyone (I believe) arguing in this thread for Knox's/Sollecito's acquittal/innocence belongs in the (a) category, and none belongs in the (b) category. So with that in mind, you might be advised to drop the "your darlings" stuff. OK?
 
Huh? The acquitting court said that it was only an allegation that placed the pair at the cottage at the **time of the murder**. What was proven, the SC said, was that even if the prosecution case was true, it placed the pair at the scene **after** the murder.

Your two sentences above are bizarre non sequiturs.

You haven't read the court documents which say it is a fact of absolute and indisputable certainty Knox was present during the murder of 'the young Meredith Kercher'.

Fiddling about with the translation doesn't change the LEGAL fact.
 
Not for murder and extortion he didn't. He was done for tax evasion. Almost like a respectable business man or US president.

It doesn't comfort me. I am a coolly scientific analytical person. BS doesn't interest me.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! ahaha AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
 
Luca Cheli covered this in his section called, "the shadows", meaning that his reading of the M-B report revealed lack of clarity on certain issues.

One of them was what the "after" referred to, in the section which ended with, "even if true all it proved that they'd been in another part of the cottage at a later time".

No one disputes that RS and AK were there at least by 10:30 am on the second - as the first people to unknowingly enter a crime scene. It's just that the Marasca-Bruno report was unclear that the "after" they referred to potentially extended into the next morning, when no one disputed that they were there. Nothing could "time stamp" when they'd been there.

So it had more to do than with an illegally obtained "confession".

I'm not so sure of that.

It would make more sense if the Marasca CSC panel had written that Amanda Knox lived in the cottage, and was thus was there before and after the murder/rape of Kercher, and that therefore the presence of her DNA in the cottage outside the room where the murder/rape took place was to be entirely expected. Raffaele Sollecito had visited Amanda in the cottage at times before and after the murder. Period.

The way the Marasca CSC panel wrote their hypotheticals left some ambiguities, and in fact they first mentioned the calunnia conviction in Section 4* and then in Section 9.4.1**, devoted considerable space to discussing Amanda's statements from the interrogation, without once indicating that the statements could not be used against her for the murder/rape case according to the Gemelli CSC panel. No doubt this was part of the Marasca CSC panel hypothesizing, but it was lacking as a clear legal statement that should have mentioned the Gemelli CSC panel ruling on inadmissibility.

One might wonder why Marasca did not mention Gemelli - but I think the answer is that Marasca did not want to cast any doubts on the calunnia conviction by pointing out that a previous CSC final judgment had ruled that Amanda's defense rights had indeed been violated during the interrogation. Again, the protection of the police and even the courts from accountability for a violation of defense rights was paramount.

And, to top off this protection against accountability of Italian authorities, in Section 2.2, the Marasca CSC panel wrote that a final judgment of the ECHR would not be able to overturn the domestic Italian calunnia conviction, falsely claiming that there was evidence of calunnia beyond the interrogation***.


* "One cannot avoid concluding, in the meantime, in this first attempted analysis, that the history of this trial has been characterised by a troubled and intrinsically contradictory path, around one sole certainty; the guilt of Amanda Knox for the slanderous accusation of Patrick Lumumba."


** "With this premise, with regards to Amanda Knox’s position, it is now observed that her presence in the house, the scene of the murder, is an acclaimed {acknowledged} fact of the trial, based on her own admissions, also contained in her signed memorial, in the part where she explains how, when she was in the kitchen, after the young Englishwoman and another person went into Kercher’s room to have sex, she heard her friend’s harrowing scream, to the lacerating and unbearable point that she slid down, squatting on the floor, holding her hands firmly on her ears, so as to hear no more of it. On this point, the reliability of the opinion of the judge a quo [of the trial from which this appeal is being heard] is certainly acceptable concerning this part of the accused’s account, based on the plausible consideration that it was she who first mentioned a possible sexual motive for the murder and spoke about the victim’s harrowing scream, when the investigators still did not have the results of an examination of the body or of the post-mortem, nor witness information taken later regarding the victim’s scream and the time it was heard (statements from Capezzali Nara, Monacchia Antonella and others). In particular we refer to the appellant’s declarations of 11/06/2007 (f, 96) in the police station.
....

Nevertheless, the calumny in question also represents circumstantial evidence against the appellant in so much as it could be considered as an initiative to cover for Guede, against whom she would have had an interest to protect herself due to retaliatory accusations against her. All is underpinned by the fact that Lumumba, like Guede, is black, hence the reliable reference to the former, in case the other was seen by someone coming into or going out of the flat."

*** "In fact, an eventual pronouncement by the European Court in favour of the same Knox, in the sense of a hoped-for recognition of her unorthodox treatment by the investigators, would not be able, in any way, to undermine the internal [Italian Court] judgment, nor open the prospect for a revision of the verdict and sentence, considering that the libelous accusations which the aforementioned defendant made against Lumumba owing to the impact of the alleged coercive acts were also confirmed by her before a public prosecutor, during questioning, therefore, in a context free of institutionally anomalous psychological pressures; and were also confirmed in a memorandum ["memoriale"] bearing her signature, at a moment when the said accuser was alone with herself and her conscience, in conditions of objective tranquillity, free from external conditioning; and were even repeated, some time later, during the validation of Lumumba's arrest, before the GIP [judge of preliminary investigation] who initiated the proceedings."
 
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You haven't read the court documents which say it is a fact of absolute and indisputable certainty Knox was present during the murder of 'the young Meredith Kercher'.

Fiddling about with the translation doesn't change the LEGAL fact.


*sigh* The court documents say nothing of the sort.

Please, please, go back and read the Marasca MR again. Carefully. And then read it alongside the Chieffi MR section dealing with the Knox criminal slander charge. Then try to have a think about it all.
 
What happens one in a thousand times in a sterile tightly controlled laboratory experiment by researchers influenced by a 'halo effect' (setting out to prove their own hypotheses for the benefit of the defence lawyers who hire them) simply becomes meanngless in a murder scene.

Criminal courts are crude and basic all it needs is beyond reasonable doubt. They don't give a toss what specious theory some clever dick defence researcher spouts.


Oh dear. You clearly have zero knowledge of (or understanding of) the scientific method. In fact, scientific experiments are always set up as much to disprove the hypothesis as to prove it - otherwise their validity is immediately called into question. That's why there are controls, negative controls, repeatability and falsifiability.

But you are obviously ignorant of all of this. No surprise there.
 
*sigh* The court documents say nothing of the sort.

Please, please, go back and read the Marasca MR again. Carefully. And then read it alongside the Chieffi MR section dealing with the Knox criminal slander charge. Then try to have a think about it all.

Oh dear. So ignorant. Yet another fanboy who hasn't read the actual court documents.
 
You haven't read the court documents which say it is a fact of absolute and indisputable certainty Knox was present during the murder of 'the young Meredith Kercher'.

Fiddling about with the translation doesn't change the LEGAL fact.

So..... you're back to the factoid that this is a mistranslation.

No it's not. There: both of us have presented exactly the same evidence that our claim is the true one.

Except you're adding a good old fashioned conspiracy to your claim. Readers can make of it what they will.
 
Can't be all that bright. Planning to make it look like a 'burglary gone wrong' and then making it look like the burglary attempt was after the murder, with 'burglary' debris scattered on top of the duvet covering the body, underneath which was the bra clasp stamped with Sollecitos clear DNA. And a ladies size 37 trainer imprint in blood, identified by a forensic expert as ASICS.

But she's so smart that she was able to remove all her and Raff's invisible DNA and fingerprints from the scene, right? And since she was "bleeding profusely" as you've previously claimed, she was also so smart that she could remove any sign of it from the bloody bedroom leaving only Kercher's blood. Man, she's one smart cookie! Oh, no...wait...she "can't be all that bright".

Let's not go around again re the bra clasp with 'Sollecito's clear DNA'. The scientific community has already debunked that. We can't help it if you refuse to accept it. There are still flat Earthers out there too.

Another forensic expert debunked the "woman's size 37 shoe" too. No court, even your revered Massei, accepted it was a female shoe print. Knox didn't own any ASICS so that is totally irrelevant even IF Rinaldi was right (which no court accepted).
 
A judge is an arbitrator. A judge is there to decide the matter.

Ok. This judge decided that they were innocent because they "did not commit the act" of which they were accused.

This judge said that one of the main reasons for this acquittal was that that the cops had conducted an "amnesiac investigation."

That's how the judge in this case decided the matter.
 
Oh dear. You clearly have zero knowledge of (or understanding of) the scientific method. In fact, scientific experiments are always set up as much to disprove the hypothesis as to prove it - otherwise their validity is immediately called into question. That's why there are controls, negative controls, repeatability and falsifiability.

But you are obviously ignorant of all of this. No surprise there.

As per Popper, the scientific method sets out to reject the 'null hypothesis'.

In other words, a scientist is struck by a theory. Let's say, gravity at 32 km per sec (iirc). The null hypothesis means he will set out to show it is at another speed completely, or that it does not exist. Once he has failed to prove his theory is pure chance, say, at 95% significance level after series upon series of experiments and using statistical methods, he can then reject the 'null hypothesis and conclude that there really does seem to be a gravitational effect on a falling object and that speed of falling can be determined to a level of 99,99999%.

This finding is such that the experiment can be replicated by others to achieve the same results.

This known as empiricism.
 
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A judge is an arbitrator. A judge is there to decide the matter.


Indeed. And do you know what the judges in all stages of the Knox/Sollecito trial process were required to decide?

I ask because I don't think you actually do know......

But I'll tell you.

The judges were required to decide only one binary outcome (for each of the charges): has it been proven to the court, beyond all reasonable doubt, that the accused committed the crime with which he/she was charged? If yes, then convict. If no*, then acquit.

Nothing more, or less, than that (though various courts throughout the Knox/Sollecito trial process clearly thought they were still sitting under the old, abolished inquisitorial process where they were required to determine exactly how the crime had occurred, and then make various elements fit into that narrative - for example, as in Massei convicting on the theft of money....).


* And note, since it seems to provide ongoing comprehension trouble for most pro-guilt commentators, that the "no" answer has no degrees of qualification. It could be that the court felt that only just insufficient evidence of guilt was provided to prove guilt BARD. But equally, it could be that the court felt that zero evidence of guilt was provided. In both those instances, and everything in between, the only verdict a court is required to reach is acquittal. Without qualification.
 
An adopted child has the same legal status as a biological child.

There is no legal anomaly there. So when your father came to inherit, he was 100% entitled to should anyone argue he was not because of his adopted status.

Whoosh! That's the point going right past you.

The question was not about LEGAL 'truths'; it was about FACTUAL truths.
A LEGAL conviction does not change a FACTUAL innocence. My dad's LEGAL father was not his FACTUAL father. The law at one time declared slaves as 3/5ths of a person for LEGAL matters. Does that mean black people were FACTUALLY 3/5th of a person? Did they only have 1 arm and 1 leg until the law changed?
 
As per Popper, the scientific method sets out to reject the 'null hypothesis'.

In other words, a scientist is struck by a theory. Let's say, gravity at 32 km per sec (iirc). The null hypothesis means he will set out to show it is at another speed completely, or that it does not exist. Once he has failed to prove his theory is pure chance, say, at 95% significance level after series upon series of experiments and using statistical methods, he can then reject the 'null hypothesis and conclude that there really does seem to be a gravitational effect on a falling object and that speed of falling can be determined to a level of 99,99999%.

This finding is such that the experiment can be replicated by others to achieve the same results.

This known as empiricism.


Please don't try to explain the scientific method to me via a wikipedia search. It's embarrassing. And it's abundantly clear from your earlier post that you don't understand it.


ETA: Oh and btw: acceleraton due to gravity is actually 10m per second per second. Or 32ft/sec/sec. So you handily demonstrated that a) you don't even know the dimension of gravity (which is an acceleration effect, whose dimension is "per second per second" or "per second squared" - rather than what you wrote, which is the dimension of velocity), and b) you didn't even stop to think whether "32km per second" (sic) could be accurate - if it were, a pen dropped from head height would hit the ground in less than 0.0001 seconds. But that didn't occur to you, did it?

"I'm a scientist" HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
 
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But she's so smart that she was able to remove all her and Raff's invisible DNA and fingerprints from the scene, right? And since she was "bleeding profusely" as you've previously claimed, she was also so smart that she could remove any sign of it from the bloody bedroom leaving only Kercher's blood. Man, she's one smart cookie! Oh, no...wait...she "can't be all that bright".

Let's not go around again re the bra clasp with 'Sollecito's clear DNA'. The scientific community has already debunked that. We can't help it if you refuse to accept it. There are still flat Earthers out there too.

Another forensic expert debunked the "woman's size 37 shoe" too. No court, even your revered Massei, accepted it was a female shoe print. Knox didn't own any ASICS so that is totally irrelevant even IF Rinaldi was right (which no court accepted).

She didn't remove evidence of her presence at the scene. That is a fanboy myth.

Believing your own PR now.
 
Ok. This judge decided that they were innocent because they "did not commit the act" of which they were accused.

This judge said that one of the main reasons for this acquittal was that that the cops had conducted an "amnesiac investigation."

That's how the judge in this case decided the matter.

Exactly. As bent as a nine bob note. Or as wily as defence lawyer Barry Shenk when he declared 'if the glove does not fit OJ Simpson he must be innocent'.
 
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