Moderated Trump announces new concentration camps

[I Am The Scum]

I'm a Trump supporter. I'm having a civil debate. Where's the confusion?

Because then we have to consider the racism of Trump's "s-hole countries" comment, and his ICE director's racial profiling, and then we realize that civility at that point is, at best, a facade.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

So you pay attention to this crisis?

The crisis at the southwest border? Yes, I do pay attention to it.

Are there any threads?

There's... this one.

Have you contacted the news media or your legislators to complain?

No; the media doesn't care and my elected representatives in the US Congress don't care either.

It's easy to pay lip service, it's harder to make a convincing case.

Guardian: Amid focus on immigration from south, illegal crossings from Canada surge

I assume this is supposed to mean something to me. The thing is the problem at the southwest border is orders of magnitude greater than any Canadian border problem. And the reason there is a Canadian surge (if you can even try to call it that) is because of numerous resources (officers) being temporarily reassigned to handle the hundreds of thousands of people storming the border there.

But the most common way are VISA overstayers.

Again, I don't understand your point. This is a thread about the crisis at the southwest border. If you want to talk about northern border issues, feel free to start a thread about it. But the fact that I'm not talking about those issues here is not evidence, at all, that I am more concerned about "brown people" (to use your "elegant" term for them) than anyone else.

 

[Cabbage]

If you are going to call any kind of detention center a concentration camp, then you probably need to come up with a different term for Auschwitz et al. Otherwise you're going to confuse a lot of people, and give the impression there's a problem where none exists.

Even then, it's probably still going to cause a lot of confusion. Colloquial language doesn't change overnight, and forcing it rarely works.

If the goal is clear communication and civil debate about immigration policy, then the thread should probably be titled, "Trump proposes new detention centers for immigration" or something like that.

Oh, so you finally admit Trump was lying with his "National Emergency" declaration? Great!

LOL!

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Sorry, I don't accept a hypothetical as evidence of an actuality. You say you would react a certain way, but we have no evidence of this.

Did I miss your similar criticism of the poster who said I would react a different way to the same hypothetical scenario? No? I didn't think so.

 

[Mumbles]

Up to the start of WWII. Se the voyage of the St Louis, the problem was getting anyone to take them and not just send them back.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/voyage-of-the-st-louis

America sent a clear message to hitler, "solve your own jewish problem, we won't take them"

In addition, Germany considered "peacefully" (ie. very forcibly) sending all of the Jews in their territory to Madagascar, and if they all died there, oh well. But the plan proved unworkable, so they decided on genocide instead, and set up the extermination camps.

Note that these were not the same as the previous concentration camps, which very clearly resembled the locations where the Dolt administration in holding Hispanic refugees - and almost certainly some legal immigrants and US citizens as well, because this administration is incredibly sloppy and campaigned primarily on a promise to harm black and Latinx people as much as possible.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Heydrich said as much in his opening statements at the Wannasee conference, which was sort of a meeting of mid level management to figure out the administrative details of The Final Solution.

Yeah one of my favorite film is Conspiracy, about the Wannasee Conference.

I'm impressed with how much of a "civil debate" the Nazis were able to have about how to exterminate the Jews. I'm especially impressed with how they made sure how they were going to exterminate the Jews was worded correctly.

 

[Cabbage]

And this is why I make so little effort to try to have a good faith political debate here.
Not because of how some vague, notional progressive approaches the debate, but because of how you and others here approach the debate.

I give you a sincere, good faith argument, and I get this crap in return. Why, dudalb? What have I ever done to you, to merit this kind of treatment?

Hell, I've been trying to tell you that all along. At least you finally admit it!

 

[PhantomWolf]

There were three different types of camps.

Concentration Camps where not only Jews, but political opponents and union organizers, Catholic Priests who objected, Communists, Socialists, Social Democrats, Roma, Jehovah's Witnesses, homosexuals, and other undesirables or persons accused of 'asocial' or socially 'deviant' behavior were held.

People were poorly treated and many did die due to deliberate maltreatment, disease, starvation, and overwork, and some being executed as "unfit for labour" and from 1941 to 1943 there were active euthanasia programs (14f13) in these camps to remove those considered to be unable to work for "health reasons," however this did include the "ailments" of being Jewish, handicapped, or having criminal or antisocial records

In 1943 two things happened

Factory Slave Camps were formed and those considered able to work for those were transported out of the Concentration Camps to those, where many were literally worked to death

Secondly the Extermination Camps were opened, and the death programs were stopped in the Concentration Camps, with those being regarded as needing to be eliminated, starting to be sent to those instead. That didn't mean that those left in the Concentrations Camps were treated any better, and nor does it mean that those suffering in them weren't dying due to malicious treatment, rather that they were no longer being killed at them as part of the extermination program. In fact a number of the camps were switched to using the populations for inhumane medical experiments instead of outright killing the occupants, which could be considered worse in some ways. many POWs, especially those from Communist Russia, were also send to these camps later in the War.

Nearly half of the Jews killed in the holocaust died in Concentration Camps rather than being sent to an Extermination Camp.

Something else to note. While the Jews were the largest group of those killed, collectively they were only about 35% of those exterminated with around 11 million non-Jews, primarily Soviet citizens and POWs, but also including Serbs, Poles, the disabled, Roma, Jehovah's Witnesses, those deemed to be Criminals, Homosexuals, political opponents, and blacks, also being murdered in the camps.

I have to agree with the USHM that we shouldn't refer to the detention centers as "Concentration Camps," however, if we did want to go with a Historical reference from WW2, then perhaps "Internment Camp" might be a better one.

 

[theprestige]

Hell, I've been trying to tell you that all along. At least you finally admit it!

This was never in doubt.

The only question was whether you'd encourage me to continue the policy. Which you do.

 

[Craig4]

If you are going to call any kind of detention center a concentration camp, then you probably need to come up with a different term for Auschwitz et al. Otherwise you're going to confuse a lot of people, and give the impression there's a problem where none exists.

Even then, it's probably still going to cause a lot of confusion. Colloquial language doesn't change overnight, and forcing it rarely works.

If the goal is clear communication and civil debate about immigration policy, then the thread should probably be titled, "Trump proposes new detention centers for immigration" or something like that.

What are you, hard of reading? Many people, not just myself have drawn a distinction between Trump's concentration camps and Nazi death camps.

 

[Lurch]

The US Holocaust Museum is dead wrong in this case. How on earth are you going to have a "never again" if you're not allowed to say when "again" might be approaching?

Right on!

I respect the plight of the Jews enormously. But they do not have ownership of the concept of the concentration camp. Such camps were also established by the he Nazis for non-Jews, like the wider intelligentsia, political prisoners, homosexuals, etc. And let us not forget the myriad concentration camps established through history worldwide which did not become factories of death.

I see no explicit comparison by anyone of honest intent of these current migrant camps with the Nazi death camps of infamy. Certainly, there are some disturbing parallels, as such can be while a society is still largely ruled by established laws. The first Nazi camps were comparatively benign, before the descent to barbarism got well and truly underway.

Today, look at what it takes to effect a change in practices in running these Trump concentration camps. An Administration essentially impervious to shame is prolonging the agony by simply ignoring opposition. Consider what a truly determined and effective Leadership and a few political lackeys in key positions could accomplish in the name of barbarity. Now. In the US. With Lady Liberty mournfully gazing upon that which a few vile people have wrought and are wreaking.

 

[theprestige]

What are you, hard of reading? Many people, not just myself have drawn a distinction between Trump's concentration camps and Nazi death camps.

So what's the problem with concentration camps?

Do you object to immigrants being detained while their status is determined?

 

[Craig4]

So what's the problem with concentration camps?

Do you object to immigrants being detained while their status is determined?

If they are children and they are in concentration camps, yes. What real American wouldn't? We have other options.

 

[theprestige]

If they are children and they are in concentration camps, yes. What real American wouldn't? We have other options.

So this is more of an implementation issue for you, rather than a policy issue.

How would you handle the problem of children being brought across the border illegally, by people who may or may not be their parents?

 

[Craig4]

So this is more of an implementation issue for you, rather than a policy issue.

How would you handle the problem of children being brought across the border illegally, by people who may or may not be their parents?

We have plenty of military dormitories with beds, bathrooms, kitchen facilities where children can be housed. Many reserve centers like March Air Force Base have dorms for reserve members called to Active duty that are now empty. We know FEMA has the ability to establish emergency shelters with field kitchens. We can enforce our immigration laws without becoming a bunch of disgusting animals.

 

[I Am The Scum]

How would you handle the problem of children being brought across the border illegally, by people who may or may not be their parents?

Personally, I think HHS should be responsible for finding their nearest American relative, and having that person act as the child's custodian.

 

[Craig4]

Personally, I think HHS should be responsible for finding their nearest American relative, and having that person act as the child's custodian.

And HHS is not doing its duty under the law. They should be contracting with NGOs and aid groups for caretakers of these children.

 

[JoeMorgue]

And now we are fully in the "I just want to have a civil debate with you..." trap where it will be demanded we fix the entire American immigration system before "Keeping children in cages in bad" is accepted as fact.

 

[I Am The Scum]

And now we are fully in the "I just want to have a civil debate with you..." trap where it will be demanded we fix the entire American immigration system before "Keeping children in cages in bad" is accepted as fact.

Whoah, slow down there, pal. I'm still working through the implications of ancient history, here. Wouldn't want to jump to any conclusions about the morality of child abuse until I see how the Carthaginians play into all of this.

 

[Cabbage]

This was never in doubt.

The only question was whether you'd encourage me to continue the policy. Which you do.

LOL! Oh sure, it's my fault you're being disingenuous!


Good One! Trump Supporters: Never ones to shirk personal responsibility. LMFAO!!